New Zealand Football Championship salaries

you're wasting your time throwing fact and logic at him JD

I realise that but it's a very slow news day here in the UK and we're on summer slow down in the UK...plus I'm off the booze for the month so I can't even look forward to a lunchtime pint with Frankie Mac

Oh, take ACFC and the O League prize money out of the equation and the ASBP will happily carry on will it?  Try and keep a grip on reality JD. It costs ACFC money to compete in the O league and CWC to the level it does and yes individuals have dipped into their own pockets. In the end it's a well run ship which can balance the books because it wins on the field. Take out the O league prize money for one or two seasons and the ASBP will be on its knees in no time, so yes ACFC does contribute overall actually.

I know, he keeps bringing up facts that are actually true JD. How annoying.

I agree, we should all be quick to acknowledge the generosity of the gamblers of Auckland Central, without whom none of this would be possible

Look I think Ivan Vicelich has been an amazing servant of NZ Football and to have him playing in the ASB Premiership is a huge coup for the league. So if he was on $70,000 a year then it's warranted.

Groan, this is such small-minded nonsense from the usual suspects.

Are you sure you're endorsing what I just posted JV? It's awfully nice of you if you do.

Here's a thought: If the ASBP is a development league as some of you think it should be and how NZF treat it then why are 'fans' being charged to go to the games and why are the teams being charged to compete?

Double dipping by NZF.

You contribute less to the other franchises in total than you yourselves receive in pokie funding from Trillion so I'm not sure why you keep emphasising the CWC prize money as being so important to the ASBP. It's important sure, but it's not nearly as important as pokie money.

I still think that any solution to the ASBP funding issue has to include finding a way to centralise the $2m (approx) per annum going into the league from pokie trusts. Pay as many costs as possible from a central pool and then distribute the rest evenly to franchises.

This is where NZF can really show some leadership because it will require NZF, the DIA, at least a couple of the big national gaming trusts and the ASBP franchises to all get in a room and hammer out a deal. It might even require regulatory change from the DIA. But if the end result is precious pokie money getting spent more efficiently and effectively (which is already flowing into the league in a distributed fashion anyway) then surely that's good for everybody, including the Govt.

Some nice side-effects would also be evening out funding (and hopefully competitiveness) across the franchises, and also reducing the possibility for back-door player payments via pokie money. Franchises could still pay players or incur other costs if they wanted to, but they would have to do it out of money they had actually generated themselves. Franchises would gain a financial competitive advantage through being hard-working and well-run, rather than via the current lottery of how close you are to a friendly pokie trust.

By the way BM, the money that you keep accusing NZF of "pocketing" out of the entry fee (which is about $15k per franchise, after paying for travel) surely just contributes to the salary of the NZF competitions manager and the cost of running the ASBP website. You wouldn't get much change out of $120k to do those two things so you can hardly describe it as some sort of NZF rort.

This isn't small-minded nonsense, it's just an objective analysis of how the league is currently funded and how it could be tweaked to achieve better outcomes. It's an unfortunate fact that any conversation about ASBP funding that isn't primarily about pokie funding is pretty pointless.

blah blah blah pokies blah blah blah pokies blah blah blah<snip>

translated for those who can't be bothered reading all that.

Nice response. A very reasoned and well laid out post which seems to give some valid means of improving the ASBP is ignored because it mentions ACFC's main source of funding? Classy.

I thought so. 

I am from the camp that believes you should encourage others to reach the dizzy heights rather than drag everyone else down to the lowest level. Term's idea would destroy ACFC and I don't think it would be fair [even partly] on the basis that they can get more pokie funding than anyone else.

There is, however, a slight issue with the symmetry with the first line against the rest - this may cause a problem for our OCD members.

 

NZF doesn't get gate revenue though do they? Different teams have different policies, but that goes into their pockets.

TeeDub charge, and fair enough. When I go I'm happy to pay.

Doesn't have anything to do with whether it's a development league or not though does it?

Have 24 hours off Ali (only because I can't do just 12 hours).  

We have asked for reasoned posts on this subject and had to shut two threads down already. 

Realistically though, nobody could reach the same dizzying heights via pokie funding. 

It's not uncommon for funding to be redistrubuted via luxury taxes in America for example, to even out the playing field a little bit, while the rich team still enjoys a (smaller) financial advantage over the others. 

In re pokies. There is no viable alternative at present. 

But if NZF got their stuff together surely it should be their mission in life to extract the maximum possible. Especially they should be looking to help smaller franchises drive a greater pokie revenue base. 

A few years ago, wasn't there a Southern Trust 'sponsorship' of a league?

I totally agree in principle NP but the problem with that is we're effectively saying every ASBP franchise needs a budget of around $1m, which means the entire league's budget would be around $8m.

That means finding an extra $5m per annum over current revenue, when the league only generates $1m of its own revenue now (including the CWC cash. Most franchises, including ACFC, generate very little 'real' revenue). Also, pokie trusts simply aren't going to plough that sort of money into paying players, which seems to be a key part of the "raising the standard to compete in the O-League" argument.

For further perspective, NZF's entire budget per annum is about $9m so they clearly cannot do much more to get the league to the levels that BM is advocating.

It's simply not a strategically pragmatic course of action to take.

I also think BM is overstating the degree to which the CWC money is propping up the rest of the league. Franchises typically receive around $30k from their share of CWC winnings, which for most of them is around 10-15% of total budget. ACFC's share is more like 30% of their budget (over 5 yrs to 2012 they averaged $300 pa CWC winnings, and $900k total revenue pa). So the team more dependent on CWC cash than anyone else is actually ACFC.

So here's a devil's advocate question - is competing in the O-League a bad strategic choice for football in NZ? What do we actually get out of it? Would we be financially better off by not competing in O-League and focusing on the ASBP?

I think that the way forward for the development of football in NZ is another 2 pro sides in the A League. Or at the very least another one. If that means a weaker NZFC but a stronger position for football in NZ in general then that's unfortunate but acceptable. I said this in the A League expansion thread a while ago: 

I know that would take money and interest away from the NZFC, but realistically that'll never be a fully professional competition. Rugby sustains 5 pro teams (admittedly with bigger squads and further to travel) and as I understand it the All Blacks generate so much revenue as a brand that they subsidise the ITM cup. I don't think that comp is anywhere near self-sustaining. If that's the case for mighty rugby then what hope does football have? I think we'd be a hell of a lot better off with 2 or 3 fully professional sides competing for the best talent to develop, than having 8 semi-pro sides.

The issues with the NZFC might be partly the result of poor management and leadership from NZF but ultimately there's a limit to how good any NZ national football comp can be, which is caused by our small isolated domestic market and the plethora of competing entertainment/leisure options for potential fans.

You raise some good points. But, I ask again, why should the ASBP franchises (most of whom struggle to raise funding) pay for the salary of the NZF competitions manager? Surely his role covers lots of competitions so NZF should pay for him/her itself out of its brimming coffers. That $120K could easily be plowed back into the ASBP to support the struggling franchises.

The NZF rort is that not only does the ASBP have to be self-financing, it actually has to contribute to NZF coffers from money it raises/wins. I too want to see an evening out of the ASBP playing field but it has to start with NZF not taking money out of the competition for its own ends. NZF can easily afford to help, and that would make a big difference. They could easily put say $100,000 into helping the likes of SU and HBU pay their costs on top of returning the ASBP's own money. That combined $250,000 odd would relieve pressure on the struggling franchises without ACFC having to pay more into the ASBP than it already does (once again - 40% of the O League prize money it wins).   

As you say NZF needs to show some leadership and as I keep saying, they don't care about the ASBP other than taking money out of it and using it as a practise ground. There lies the rub. Not ACFC's success on and off the field.

That's an interesting point because competing in the O league at the level of ACFC requires extra investment, which can only be recouped if ACFC wins the competition. When WU failed to win the O league several years ago it sent them into a financial tailspin from which they never recovered. It wasn't the only reason but it contributed. Now WU are not even competitive in the O League and they're probably going to struggle in next season's ASBP.

TW are going to find out for themselves next season that the standard of the O League is getting much better because rich investors are pouring money into teams like Amicale  (Vanuatu) and Dragon (Tahiti). Big crowds turn out in Melanesia and Tahiti. ACFC went to the wire against Amicale in a thrilling home leg final last season at Kiwitea Street. It could have gone either way. The Amicale team by the way featured two Serbians pros and a former Scot pro and was bankrolled by a wealthy supermarket tycoon. Dragon is near professional and Hekari (New Guinea) has rich mining interests behind it.

To take away ACFC's ability to put out its strongest side will diminish NZ's chances of winning the O league. Take that $30,000+ away from say CU or WaiBop and do you seriously think they could continue in the ASBP?

Another factor is frankly the ASBP has been so devalued by NZF indifference over the years that if there was no O League I doubt ACFC would attract the players/coach it does. The prospect of going to the Fifa Club World Cup is still a big incentive. We wouldn't have Ramon for a start. I truly don't believe the ASBP would survive without the O league.

It's not actually, it's just demonstrating how deluded you are when you think that anyone other than gaming trusts are funding this whole thing. ACFC make about $50k from entrance fees, $100k (max) from sponsorship and $500k (minimum) from gaming trusts. That is a fact, it's not in dispute, so stop pretending otherwise. 

I know this is off point (as this was about salaries before we got into our usual tedious debate), but here's a different proposal I have been thinking about.

Part of the problem with the league is lack of competition.

Part of the problem is the tedious nature of playing the same teams all the time.

Part of the problem is that because there is no sanction for poor performance teams can basically decide to have a year off, which Otago and Waikato have both done from time to time, and just start again next season.

Part of the problem is there is almost no interest in the league for the weaker teams who aren't going to do anything at all and can't get relegated.

Part of the problem is because the league is funded by gaming trusts, people in charge of teams aren't accountable to fans, and gaming trusts pay against costs not results like real sponsors would.

My solution, focus on as soon as possible bringing in an 8 team div 2.  You could just about do it tomorrow - Phoenix 2 or a 2nd Wellington team, Palmy, Nelson, A.N.Other Auckland team (or 2, Sth and Nth Shore), Wairarapa as well.  Tauranga could probably manage a team. Sure they might be a bit less organised than the existing well run franchises but that's life.  You just have to deal with that.

Start enforcing the original franchise agreement in div 1 but have a bit more leniency in div 2.  I'd also have an official/unofficial wage cap in div 2.

Suddenly you have a competition which looks a lot more interesting.  Promotion and relegation.  Pressure on teams to perform. More media attention.  I don't think it would necessarily overnight increase playing standards, but it would be a lot more fun and a lot more interesting.

With 16 teams you could reduce the entry fee a little. You'd have to push hard on costs in div 2.  Introduce proper regulation of overseas players to keep costs down.  Also I'd introduce a requirement to have 2 U20s in starting squads.

This is only an outline, but to me it makes more sense than a 10 or 12 team div 1 with no promo or relegation.

This league is damn near broke and terribly run ...I dont think adding a heap more teams running on oily rags would help anything ...unfortunately , 

Me ,Im getting rich the old fashioned way , my offspring will have a fabo idea and Ill back him and get rich off the proceeds !

Then youll see an ACFC funded up to their ears !

Personally I don't think a second division is viable because of high travel costs although I like the notion of relegation/promotion.

Gaming trust funding will inevitably be uneven based on population etc.

Instead of a second division how about the bottom team each season has to go into a promotion/relegation play-off with a new franchise?If none comes forward in a particular season then the bottom team stays. This would at least stop ASBP sides taking a season off.

The ASBP becomes an 8 franchise competition (bring in South Auckland and Nelson).

NZF stop taking any funding out of franchise entry fees or O league prizemoney. Instead they put up $100,000 each season so that overall $250,000 odd is poured back to subsidize costs for the sides below a certain income threshold. This means NZF is effectively investing $100,000 (a modest amount) into its main domestic development league and not taking anything out.

The Phoenix reserve team play friendlies against ASBP sides to gain game time. The ASBP side keeps the gate.

I've never said ACFC doesn't get sizeable funding from gaming trusts to add to gate and sponsorship. But it has also won the O league for the past four seasons and that's won it about $350k a season by its onfield performance, while investing nearly that amount back in the ASBP overall. That's a big contribution.

hang on, 350k/7 is $50k per team (which seems a bit high, but we'll go with that). That isn't actually as much as you're making out when you compare it to how much pokie money is floating about in the ASBP. 

As termy said, it's about 15% of a teams total budget. 

Yes it's about $350k of the O League prizemoney goes back to the ASBP, but unfortunately NZF trouser about $80k of that which means the other franchises get about $30-$35k each. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. Still a pretty good contribution off the back of ACFC's efforts. It would be nearer $50k for each franchise if NZF didn't make its unjustified grab which would push it up to nearer 25% of some team's total budget.

I gather that what ACFC keeps of the O League prizemoney makes about 35-40% of the club's ASBP budget, less I guess recouping any extra out of pocket spending on the O League campaign. 

Hang on Hard News, I have a bone to pick with you. You've banned Alireggae for 24 hours for saying "blah, blah" and yet Jeff Vader is allowed to throw a really nasty corruption slur at ACFC (read dodgy Balkan types) by posting "unless you happen to receive mysterious brown paper envelopes in dark alleys in Sandringham" - and nothing happens.

I know this was probably received with chortles of delight by the usual ACFC-haters but this is a really unjustified and slanderous accusation of corruption on a bunch of good football people who run ACFC. This is typical of the constant inference that somehow ACFC is corrupt by certain individuals on this forum but statements like that are far more deserving of a ban than what Ali said in jest.

If what JV implied about ACFC was directed at Welnix you would be livid HN and I'm sure the ban stick would come out. Double standards seem to apply. I bet JV won't have the courage to voice this sneer in person down at Kiwitea Street? If the club was Italian run it would all be about the mafia wouldn't it.

I expect you to be fair Hard News.

To be fair to news, if consistency was enforced Vader would be permanently banned. We all know he's a mad man so tolerate him and find him funny

I agree but there should be some sort of standards about what people are allowed to say or imply. Give respect where it's due. There's funny and there's just plain nasty. It just seems any mud is allowed to be thrown at ACFC.

 

Deep breaths folks.

The standard of debate in this thread has been bloody good. There have been some solutions proposed, and debated.

Can we just stay away from the pot shots. Yes ACFC is a well run ship, we know. Yes they do get almost all of their money from pokies. We know that too. It doesn't actually matter that much. The other bigger issues discussed in the above couple of pages (more funding, NZF's role, league structure, etc etc) are heaps more interesting. Can we keep chipping away at those? 

And Newsy, if we've been wielding the banstick unfairly let's fix that up. 

Self bans ?

Actually Smithy, while appreciating your sentiments, I wish to point out a mistake. ACFC doesn't get almost all its monies from pokes, it gets about half. The rest comes from gates, sponsorship and winning the O League every season. There's a big difference.

As you were.

DISSENT  .... DISSENT ....!!!

 

Hmmm, not sure if trolling or deliberately missed my point about focusing on the more important issues :)

Carry on.