New Zealand Football Championship salaries

Blah, blah. Can't believe this thread is being permitted to continue and yet the one discussing real issues is closed.

In fact, both should remain open.

 

I closed the other one cos it had turned into two users slagging each other ad nauseum. There was no good chat left.

But that's not to say the discussion on that topic is closed or forbidden. Go nuts.

Then I shall ...

Quietly , and in my own good time ...

Salaries alone do not of course make for an improved standard of play (See England World Cup Squad Circa  2014) 

I can guarantee you that there is not even an expense payment at Southern United.....

All performance based then ?

No-one is saying the ASBP is a level playing field. I appreciate ACFC and some of the other franchises are much better off financially than others. I only wish more money could be found for sides like Southern United. Surely this is where NZF must step in and try and help the struggling franchises. There must be a way of finding more funding for the ASBP but it requires a will on behalf of the central body. At the moment NZF are relying on ACFC winning the O League so they can use the ASBP as a training facility for the Nix reserves and Under 20 fringe players.

ACFC is alright because Auckland is the major population base and the O League provides a very substantial top up. Waitakere has benefited from this in the past too. Canterbury and HBU seem to be alright but I imagine SU and WaiBop would struggle to find any player payments on top of their outlays.

I know more money doesn't necessarily equate to better onfield performances but it does attract better players, compensates them for more training time and is a psychological incentive. Striving to make the O league, which TW has finally done, should be the target for all franchises. But lets be honest, at the moment it's down to ACFC. If TW make a real fist of the O League next season then good on them, I just hope more than the Miramar diehards turn out to support them. The essential thing is we have to keep that prize money in NZ or the ASBP is in serious trouble.

I agree with this. Especially the bit in bold.

Really all that can be done is to make the league as strong and "professional" as possible, and then hope that crowds and coverage will follow.

NZF have failed to do that first bit I reckon. 

the more money a team has to spend - the more non NZers they will get

 

Easy enough to put rules in place about that sort of stuff.

Of course, you'd need a national body prepared to impose rules and police them.

Wellington Phoenix being a prime example of that

Surely the secret is not to pay the current players more to attract them to the likes of Dunedin but to improve the abilities of future players and coaches? I have struggled with BM's constant accusation that NZF don't take the ASB seriously, he seems to base this mainly on the fact that there is inadequate prize money and that they don't throw all of this money at it. I don't see what the aversion is to it being treated as a development league for players to go onto higher things either, we simply don't have the talent, the money or the speactator support to be anything else. We've had a national league and where is that now? we have our number 1 sport not being able to make a dollar at below All Black level and yet we cling to this pie in the sky view that we can make football do that, without any concrete evidence to support that theory. I have played for money and it didn't make me any better as a footballer, nor did it improve anyone else I played with either. Unless you can pay people to be full time and they spend their time training and being trained/coached, the improvments shown are unlikely to be dynamic. I honestly don't see too much to change. We have the Whole of Football Plan that shoudl produce results in future, we have a good ASB competition, we have a team playing in the A League, we have a successful women's national team, we have a good smattering of young players playing overseas at various levels and a promising young mens' national team. Of course things could always be better but FFS our world isn't coming to an end.

Yawn.

 

This sort of shit is why I had to close the other thread. IF you want discussion then contribute to it.

And " Yawn " adds what ?

Maybe "Yawn" adds a fair indication that people are sick and tired of certain individuals lobbing pointless and irrelevant grenades about the Phoenix into what could be a reasonable discussion about the ASBP? Just putting it out there.

 

Nothing. But, as they say, "he started it". So I just picked on the first post to deliver the message to everyone.

I hear you but I don't agree on some points. First off the ASBP is not good, it's really struggling below the top three teams. It could be much better, as it was for the first few seasons. Yes it's a development league but it also needs to be taken seriously in it's own right.

Yes I hark on about a lack of NZF support. They do not invest one cent in helping the competition. In fact they inflate the entrance fee of $65,000 over actual travel costs and trouser about $15,000 per franchise for non-existent "promotion". If that was plowed back into the bottom four franchises it would help them for a start. NZF also takes upwards of about $80,000 from the O League prizemoney that ACFC has won for the past four seasons. That too could be plowed back into helping the ASBP overall, although if I remember rightly that happened one season after some public criticism. Such simple acts would cut in half the likes of SU's overheads. So simply saying there isn't any money to put into the ASBP doesn't wash.

Are you honestly saying that if a franchise cannot pay a cent in expenses to a player it makes no difference? I strongly disagree. The top franchises have been able to run as almost semi-pro outfits because they've had the funds and it has shown on the field. ACFC train most nights and the players comment how much it lifts their standards. It definitely shows. When WU had funds they were very competitive. One of the primary reasons the likes of Southern United haven't a chance is they can't ask players to do more and don't attract the best. I'm not denigrating SU because I marvel at the dedication of the players and hardy supporters when the prospects on the field are low. I've always wanted to see a truly competitive NL with eight sides the quality of ACFC but that can't happen unless we find major sources of funding for the bottom sides. This is about will finding a way. To say any improvement in the current ASBP is pie in the sky is sadly defeatist to me.

We have the most popular game in the world, we have a fast growing immigrant population that largely follows football (25% of overall population now I believe), we have enormous interest in events like the World Cup and EPL. That we can't do better with our own national league is sad. Sure we have a team playing in the A League but for the past two seasons it has struggled and lost a lot of money. The A League is surging ahead and the Phoenix are struggling to keep up. On top of this FFA applies arbitary restrictions on the Phoenix keeping them from the reserve competition and out of the ACL, even though NZ investors are spending a lot of money providing numerous professional contracts for Australian players who aren't deemed imports, but NZ players in Australia are. That is simply not fair.

I'm not saying the world is coming to an end but I am concerned for the long term survival of both the ASBP and Phoenix. We're muddling through on too many fronts when this is a fantastic product if done right. Other codes can only dream of the worldwide appeal of football.

Sadly, I don't think it's the worldwide appeal of football that's the problem. It's the appeal in New Zealand. Not necessarily disagreeing with what you're saying, but one big reason that the ASBP is dying on it's arse, and the Phoenix are struggling, is because (generally) nobody goes to watch them.

Just to add to the whole ASB franchise thing; as my nom-de-plume suggests, I am in Napier and HBU is the team I support in the ASB and know most about. I’m not certain that Blue Magic totally has a handle on how good the HBU organisation really is, he does keep mentioning them as one of the well run teams along with Auckland and Canterbury. I think they do a pretty good job but they really have to work at it and have a core group of good football people that contribute, they take nothing for granted and struggle every year to come up with the funding etc to run the organisation. I hear many complaints about a lot of franchises just being winter clubs in disguise – ACFC – Central, TW –Miramar, CU – Cashmere etc, even locally, there is the accusation that HBU is Napier City Rovers. I can tell you now HBU is not NCR is disguise, but of course, there are a number of NCR players in the side simply because they are by far the best team in HB and playing at the highest level, no one else comes close to them. They also play at the home of NCR [Park Island] but that venue is owned and maintained by the Napier City Council. The clubhouse is run by NCR people and I’m not sure if they get paid or not, but they do a fantastic job. I understand that at the beginning HBU were basically run by NCR because no one else would/could do it but at least 4 years ago there was a strong move to have HBU as a true representation of all of the clubs in the Bay. This meant all of the clubs had voting rights [including junior clubs that weren’t affiliated to senior clubs] the board was made up of people from a number of different clubs and there was also a number of HBU players that played their winter football in the Bay but at clubs other than NCR. Recently [last year I think] Central Football essentially took over the administration of HBU and in doing so, ensured the franchise was a representative of the local football community. At games, I see groups of supporters and players from a number of HB clubs in attendance and I genuinely believe that the HB footballing public [with the odd exception] support HBU as our local ‘National League’ club. We all know that we can’t be competitive by fielding only local players and so we bring others in from outside, many of them return in following years with 1 or 2 even moving and playing winter football here. The purpose of this long minded introduction is that I believe this is probably the model that NZF had expected when the ASB was set up. For various reasons [I don’t know what they are] some winter clubs have ended up running the franchises. That might be because of apathy from others, who knows but it is a bit of a catch 22 situation in some ways, no one else will put their hand up to be involved, the top local winter club gets involved, others look at it as a closed shop, they don’t support the franchise and we are where we are today. I reckon if we managed to get all franchises working similarly to the HBU model there would be more buy in by football people in some of these areas. If that was the case, Auckland could probably have 3 or 4 well supported teams, Wellington at least another one.

NP.  Please master paragraphs.  I'm sure your points are valid but I can't read that.

Sorry i have problems with my browser at work and can't format properly. I'll go back and have another crack at editing. Be patient, it is all good stuff lol.

Sorry News, I tried but it keeps posting as one large block. I'll try to change it tonight when I get home and use my own PC.

No worries.  (I did read it)  Would be sa shame if people skipped it due to that though.

True - I read the start and it seemed to make a lot of sense but I skimmed the rest.

Click the </> button in your editor and put <p>...</p> around all of your paragraphs

I couldn't agree more Napier Phoenix. I've always said that HBU is a good example of a well run ASBP franchise. I know the ACFC players like going to Park Island for the atmosphere and the facilities. I would love to see you make the final of the ASBP and the O league to see if Napier's football supporters really turn out in force. You're knocking on the door.

I also appreciate it's harder for you to raise the kind of funding needed because of the limited population base in your region, although Hawke's Bay is one of the more popular regions in NZ.

When you mentioned ACFC being an offshoot of Central United, it was always that from the beginning. The largely Croatian base are fantastic supporters and backers of football and Ivan Vuksich and co run a great ship. I'm a Kiwi but I love going to Kiwitea Street, as do other supporters of all nationalities. I've always felt very welcome there and at Central United in the winter league. That's why I get pissed off with the usual band of suspects who constantly denigrate ACFC.

The reason some other franchises like TW now rely on the stalwarts of a winter club (in this case Miramar) is because the original multi-club franchise spread withered, as I think has happened at WU too. This is not ideal but a sad reality of the decline of the ASBP.

I agree but I do believe that can be turned around.

I've never made any secret of the fact my heart lies in the NL rather than the A League but I'd like to see both the ASBP and Nix prosper. You're packing out the caketin for the Phoenix against Newcastle  and it looks like in excess 20,000 plus are going to be at Eden Park tonight to see the Nix against West Ham (please beat the sodding Hammers, I'll be eternally grateful).

The interest in football is there, we just have to make the local product worthy in a crowded marketplace.

BTW - full credit to Wellnix for their ambition in bringing out Newcastle and West Ham. Pat on the back deserved.  Hope you break even. .

I'll try again in a new box.

Just to add to the whole ASB franchise thing; as my nom-de-plume suggests, I am in Napier and HBU is the team I support in the ASB and know most about. I’m not certain that Blue Magic totally has a handle on how good the HBU organisation really is, he does keep mentioning them as one of the well run teams along with Auckland and Canterbury. I think they do a pretty good job but they really have to work at it and have a core group of good football people that contribute, they take nothing for granted and struggle every year to come up with the funding etc to run the organisation.

I hear many complaints about a lot of franchises just being winter clubs in disguise – ACFC – Central, TW –Miramar, CU – Cashmere etc, even locally, there is the accusation that HBU is Napier City Rovers. I can tell you now HBU is not NCR is disguise, but of course, there are a number of NCR players in the side simply because they are by far the best team in HB and playing at the highest level, no one else comes close to them. They also play at the home of NCR [Park Island] but that venue is owned and maintained by the Napier City Council. The clubhouse is run by NCR people and I’m not sure if they get paid or not, but they do a fantastic job.

 I understand that at the beginning HBU were basically run by NCR because no one else would/could do it but at least 4 years ago there was a strong move to have HBU as a true representation of all of the clubs in the Bay. This meant all of the clubs had voting rights [including junior clubs that weren’t affiliated to senior clubs] the board was made up of people from a number of different clubs and there was also a number of HBU players that played their winter football in the Bay but at clubs other than NCR. Recently [last year I think] Central Football essentially took over the administration of HBU and in doing so, ensured the franchise was a representative of the local football community.

 At games, I see groups of supporters and players from a number of HB clubs in attendance and I genuinely believe that the HB footballing public [with the odd exception] support HBU as our local ‘National League’ club. We all know that we can’t be competitive by fielding only local players and so we bring others in from outside, many of them return in following years with 1 or 2 even moving and playing winter football here.

 The purpose of this long minded introduction is that I believe this is probably the model that NZF had expected when the ASB was set up. For various reasons [I don’t know what they are] some winter clubs have ended up running the franchises. That might be because of apathy from others, who knows but it is a bit of a catch 22 situation in some ways, no one else will put their hand up to be involved, the top local winter club gets involved, others look at it as a closed shop, they don’t support the franchise and we are where we are today. I reckon if we managed to get all franchises working similarly to the HBU model there would be more buy in by football people in some of these areas. If that was the case, Auckland could probably have 3 or 4 well supported teams, Wellington at least another one.

Aren't you then just paying the same players more to play?  Not sure how that would improve things significantly unless you can get guys to go full time which isn't going to happen.  Maybe you would get a few more out of towners down to Otago which would make them more competitive - but in the long term I just think the local league is to weak to put together a winning side

First off congratulations to the Phoenix for beating West Ham last night, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Ernie deserved that grin of satisfaction, wish he was AW coach to be honest. That's six points in the bag for Crystal Palace this coming EPL season if that's the state of the Cockney wideboys. Good to see Albert back to his best and I liked this other Spaniard you have, a well taken goal.

I also congratulate Welnix for their ambition in bringing out WH and Newcastle, this is the kind of bold out of the box thinking NZ football needs. It's a pity ACFC couldn't have been in the mix to showcase the ASBP too, but I appreciate it's a Phoenix show. On that front I met an Island Bay supporter who was also watching and he said he doesn't go watch TW because he hates Miramar as an ex WDU player. This is what's plaguing the whole ASBP, and I don't know how you get over it. I'm sure that same feeling plays out in Christchurch, Napier and Dunedin too. Just look at all the ACFC knockers on this forum.

Pity more than 20,000 didn't turn up at Eden Park, but I think Sydney's 4-0 thumping by Newcastle the night before may have put some people off going out of fear for another one-sided affair. I was also disappointed in the lack of promotion for the game around Auckland - where were the banners, posters, flags advertising the game? I'm used to that in the ASBP but not for this.

What makes ACFC so successful? Lets be honest, it's having the funds to invest in a really good coach, being able to bring in some good imports and being able to compensate local players for training most nights so they're at a playing level of semi-pro. This higher standard means they can win silverware and compete in the O League and CWC. This in turn makes the side appealing for the best players in the ASBP and brings in spectators. In the end the bottom line is money although ACFC also benefits from a very active supporter base. The same applied to WU when Rex Dawkins ran it. CU and HBU are in this ball park too.

So somehow we've got to get funds to the struggling franchises like SU, WaiBop and even TW to make it a more level playing field. I've already explained that by giving back what they cream off the ASBP entry fee and O league prizemoney, NZF could make an immediate start on this if only they'd take more interest in their own NL. ACFC is in a good position, as a fan of the ASBP I'm happy for special help to be given to the franchises from smaller centres because I appreciate how tough it is for them. This has to be led by NZF.

Bluemagic

You make a statement with absolutely no foundation as to its accuracy - The same applied to WU when Rex Dawkins ran it. CU and HBU are in this ball park too.

I can assure you that HBU are nowhere near to several of the other franchises when it comes to money.   Hawkes Bay is not a wealthy area, much of the sponsorship money goes to rugby which is the number 1 sport in the area.   HBU struggles to make ends meet so please, don't live in awe of the financial wealth of the HBU franchise.

I am amazed bearing in mind the name of the thread, that apart from Smithy outlining team Wellingtons wage that no one has given us an estimation of aucklands. I can only assume if the poke stories are true that theirs must be $1000 a week. Would any one else like to raise that?

Heard that Vicelich is 60k plus but that is player / assistant coach.

I heard 70k a few seasons ago. Then ago he is a little older now

I heard he gets his weight in sparkles and rainbows ....

That's all well and good but if you set up ACFC n Dunedin with the same budget you have half as good a team.  Auckland can attract players to the City because they can get jobs etc.  They have a steady stream of decent players coming through via the local league which is pretty strong.  My point is that I'm not convinced that an Otago team can ever be truly competitive in a semi pro model because they wages on offer aren't enough to get players to move - there aren't the jobs down there

WU in its heyday under Rex Dawkins was competitive with ACFC on and off the field, as results proved, so I don't get the "absolutely no foundation" accusation. I don't know the financial figures for HBU and I'm sorry to hear they struggle to make ends meet because they're a decent team. If it's true they're really struggling then as I say NZF have it within their reach to help them financially as I've explained.

I think ACFC does it's bit to help the other franchises by winning the O League and plowing about 40% of that prize money back into the ASBP. It is bloody expensive putting together a quality team that can win the O League and be competitive in the CWC each season so it would be counterproductive to take further money out of ACFC to subsidize other franchises because if we lose the O League prize money the whole house of cards would come down.

It's NZF that needs to pull its finger out (have I mentioned this before).

Hold on - let's get real for a second.  Auckland gets additional gaming trust money to cover the costs of competing at the CWC and the O-League and have 50% of the CWC money to spend putting together a team.  It's all in their accounts, there is no additional source of funds there, there's no sponsor or individual helping out, no-one is putting their own money in.  This myth you've developed that the kind hearted souls spend a load of money on players, saving the league in the process and doing everyone else a favour is just laughable.