How to rebirth the Phoenix/The "What can we do to improve?" thread

Bullion

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Napier Phoenix wrote:

Ryan wrote:

theprof wrote:

none of the above is going to happen with an ownership group who wants to turn a profit before all other things.

What? We're not CCM here spending the minimum, this team is very expensive it's just not performing. In fact, our ownership group has never expressed any desire to make a profit - let alone make one before all other things. They've said that the end goal is for the team to be self sufficient, right now they're spending millions a season on it.

I know for a fact that at least one of the consortium sees the Phoenix as purely philanthropic, and others have expressed in the media their desire to do this for Wellington, and to use it as a vehicle to do more for the city.

What we need though is a decent coach who is given free range, no more of this football comity business. We've seen time and time again what a good coach can do for a mediocre team, and this team is in fact a good team that is underperforming so there is a huge amount of potential.

I can only say rubbish!!!!

The fact that the team is expensive only means that the Nix ownership don't know enough about running a football business and they are not successful at it.

And I'm sorry, a good coach can do nothing for a mediocre team that is lasting, one or two good performances perhaps but at A League level you need good players that perform - full stop.

The view that this is a good team is just a fallacy, absolutely no evidence to support that. At almost every turn they are shown to be wanting and not up to A League standard. Some of you have to stop deluding yourself, the table doesn't lie especially when we are filling the bottom slots every bloody year......

I would say the team, envisaged on how Ernie wanted to set up, is a good team. WeeMac, Roly and Finkler are good HAL midfielders, Kosta and Krishna are good HAL attackers, Dura and Rossi are good HAL defenders (Rossi very good), Moss is a good HAL 'keeper. The others around the first team, Doyle, Lia, ARod have proven to be competent HAL players over the season and Tratt has surprisingly been decent.

I thought there were a couple of issues with the team, pressing with Finkler in the team and possession football with Moss as 'keeper.

Otherwise we're performing worse than the sum of our parts.

February 20, 2017 17:09 · Edited February 20, 2017 17:16

ConanTroutman

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Bullion wrote:

Napier Phoenix wrote:

Ryan wrote:

theprof wrote:

none of the above is going to happen with an ownership group who wants to turn a profit before all other things.

What? We're not CCM here spending the minimum, this team is very expensive it's just not performing. In fact, our ownership group has never expressed any desire to make a profit - let alone make one before all other things. They've said that the end goal is for the team to be self sufficient, right now they're spending millions a season on it.

I know for a fact that at least one of the consortium sees the Phoenix as purely philanthropic, and others have expressed in the media their desire to do this for Wellington, and to use it as a vehicle to do more for the city.

What we need though is a decent coach who is given free range, no more of this football comity business. We've seen time and time again what a good coach can do for a mediocre team, and this team is in fact a good team that is underperforming so there is a huge amount of potential.

I can only say rubbish!!!!

The fact that the team is expensive only means that the Nix ownership don't know enough about running a football business and they are not successful at it.

And I'm sorry, a good coach can do nothing for a mediocre team that is lasting, one or two good performances perhaps but at A League level you need good players that perform - full stop.

The view that this is a good team is just a fallacy, absolutely no evidence to support that. At almost every turn they are shown to be wanting and not up to A League standard. Some of you have to stop deluding yourself, the table doesn't lie especially when we are filling the bottom slots every bloody year......

I would say the team, envisaged on how Ernie wanted to set up, is a good team. WeeMac, Roly and Finkler are good HAL midfielders, Kosta and Krishna are good HAL attackers, Dura and Rossi are good HAL defenders (Rossi very good), Moss is a good HAL 'keeper. The others around the first team, Doyle, Lia, ARod have proven to be competent HAL players over the season and Tratt has surprisingly been decent.

I thought there were a couple of issues with the team, pressing with Finkler in the team and possession football with Moss as 'keeper.

Otherwise we're performing worse than the sum of our parts.

The problem is that Ernie's tactics relied on fullbacks contributing massively and a solid DM who could tackle, screen and pass. In Ernie's best year we had Manny and Boxall who were both in rollicking form in the FB roles and Riera at his peak at DM was the best in that role in the competition. In this season's squad, with Ernie's preferred starters the FBs and DM were arguably the weakest players relative to the competition standard. If you adjust tactically to cover those weaknesses (don't have the FBs push forward, play 2 DMs, don't transition as quickly, etc) then it becomes apparent that the mix of players you have isn't really right for any other approach. You can shoehorn them into a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 but not without some of those "good" players playing out of position or not playing at all. Which is why I argue that although there are some good players it's not actually a good squad. It also makes it harder for Des and Greenie to find a way to play and any future manager to impose his style, because a lot of those guys are contracted beyond this season.

February 20, 2017 17:40 · Edited February 20, 2017 17:41

sthn.jeff

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ConanTroutman wrote:

Bullion wrote:

Napier Phoenix wrote:

Ryan wrote:

theprof wrote:

none of the above is going to happen with an ownership group who wants to turn a profit before all other things.

What? We're not CCM here spending the minimum, this team is very expensive it's just not performing. In fact, our ownership group has never expressed any desire to make a profit - let alone make one before all other things. They've said that the end goal is for the team to be self sufficient, right now they're spending millions a season on it.

I know for a fact that at least one of the consortium sees the Phoenix as purely philanthropic, and others have expressed in the media their desire to do this for Wellington, and to use it as a vehicle to do more for the city.

What we need though is a decent coach who is given free range, no more of this football comity business. We've seen time and time again what a good coach can do for a mediocre team, and this team is in fact a good team that is underperforming so there is a huge amount of potential.

I can only say rubbish!!!!

The fact that the team is expensive only means that the Nix ownership don't know enough about running a football business and they are not successful at it.

And I'm sorry, a good coach can do nothing for a mediocre team that is lasting, one or two good performances perhaps but at A League level you need good players that perform - full stop.

The view that this is a good team is just a fallacy, absolutely no evidence to support that. At almost every turn they are shown to be wanting and not up to A League standard. Some of you have to stop deluding yourself, the table doesn't lie especially when we are filling the bottom slots every bloody year......

I would say the team, envisaged on how Ernie wanted to set up, is a good team. WeeMac, Roly and Finkler are good HAL midfielders, Kosta and Krishna are good HAL attackers, Dura and Rossi are good HAL defenders (Rossi very good), Moss is a good HAL 'keeper. The others around the first team, Doyle, Lia, ARod have proven to be competent HAL players over the season and Tratt has surprisingly been decent.

I thought there were a couple of issues with the team, pressing with Finkler in the team and possession football with Moss as 'keeper.

Otherwise we're performing worse than the sum of our parts.

The problem is that Ernie's tactics relied on fullbacks contributing massively and a solid DM who could tackle, screen and pass. In Ernie's best year we had Manny and Boxall who were both in rollicking form in the FB roles and Riera at his peak at DM was the best in that role in the competition. In this season's squad, with Ernie's preferred starters the FBs and DM were arguably the weakest players relative to the competition standard. If you adjust tactically to cover those weaknesses (don't have the FBs push forward, play 2 DMs, don't transition as quickly, etc) then it becomes apparent that the mix of players you have isn't really right for any other approach. You can shoehorn them into a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 but not without some of those "good" players playing out of position or not playing at all. Which is why I argue that although there are some good players it's not actually a good squad. It also makes it harder for Des and Greenie to find a way to play and any future manager to impose his style, because a lot of those guys are contracted beyond this season.

while Boxall Mannie and Rierra were factors, Burns and his goals far outweigh those. He went off the boil, we turned to shark

February 20, 2017 18:14

ConanTroutman

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sthn.jeff wrote:

ConanTroutman wrote:

Bullion wrote:

Napier Phoenix wrote:

Ryan wrote:

theprof wrote:

none of the above is going to happen with an ownership group who wants to turn a profit before all other things.

What? We're not CCM here spending the minimum, this team is very expensive it's just not performing. In fact, our ownership group has never expressed any desire to make a profit - let alone make one before all other things. They've said that the end goal is for the team to be self sufficient, right now they're spending millions a season on it.

I know for a fact that at least one of the consortium sees the Phoenix as purely philanthropic, and others have expressed in the media their desire to do this for Wellington, and to use it as a vehicle to do more for the city.

What we need though is a decent coach who is given free range, no more of this football comity business. We've seen time and time again what a good coach can do for a mediocre team, and this team is in fact a good team that is underperforming so there is a huge amount of potential.

I can only say rubbish!!!!

The fact that the team is expensive only means that the Nix ownership don't know enough about running a football business and they are not successful at it.

And I'm sorry, a good coach can do nothing for a mediocre team that is lasting, one or two good performances perhaps but at A League level you need good players that perform - full stop.

The view that this is a good team is just a fallacy, absolutely no evidence to support that. At almost every turn they are shown to be wanting and not up to A League standard. Some of you have to stop deluding yourself, the table doesn't lie especially when we are filling the bottom slots every bloody year......

I would say the team, envisaged on how Ernie wanted to set up, is a good team. WeeMac, Roly and Finkler are good HAL midfielders, Kosta and Krishna are good HAL attackers, Dura and Rossi are good HAL defenders (Rossi very good), Moss is a good HAL 'keeper. The others around the first team, Doyle, Lia, ARod have proven to be competent HAL players over the season and Tratt has surprisingly been decent.

I thought there were a couple of issues with the team, pressing with Finkler in the team and possession football with Moss as 'keeper.

Otherwise we're performing worse than the sum of our parts.

The problem is that Ernie's tactics relied on fullbacks contributing massively and a solid DM who could tackle, screen and pass. In Ernie's best year we had Manny and Boxall who were both in rollicking form in the FB roles and Riera at his peak at DM was the best in that role in the competition. In this season's squad, with Ernie's preferred starters the FBs and DM were arguably the weakest players relative to the competition standard. If you adjust tactically to cover those weaknesses (don't have the FBs push forward, play 2 DMs, don't transition as quickly, etc) then it becomes apparent that the mix of players you have isn't really right for any other approach. You can shoehorn them into a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 but not without some of those "good" players playing out of position or not playing at all. Which is why I argue that although there are some good players it's not actually a good squad. It also makes it harder for Des and Greenie to find a way to play and any future manager to impose his style, because a lot of those guys are contracted beyond this season.

while Boxall Mannie and Rierra were factors, Burns and his goals far outweigh those. He went off the boil, we turned to shark

Fair point, but on paper at least there wasn't much difference between Burns when we signed him and Kosta at the start of last season. And I think that at least part of the reason Burns went off the boil is that other sides figured out how to counter our tactics.

Both points actually reinforce the argument that the squad isn't that good because it's setup to play a style which only worked for half a season with a key player in once-in-a-lifetime form

February 20, 2017 19:31

Ryan

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They don't reinforce the fact that the squad itself isn't good, just that the tactics and recruitment aren't.

The squad is clearly worse than the sum of its parts, still the quality of the players should mean that we're closer to first than to last.

February 20, 2017 20:11 · Edited February 20, 2017 20:11

Marto

Starting XI

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almost 17 years

Doloras wrote:

Well, if I'm wrong and it has nothing to do with overall Wellington culture: why do so many great players come here and turn to crap? Especially in the last three seasons: I list Weemac, Roly and Kosta again as my prime examples. Is it just a club culture thing?

It's not just Wellington. The same happened in Auckland. I think it's a New Zealand thing.... too laid back maybe?

February 21, 2017 00:02

Marto

Starting XI

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ConanTroutman wrote:

sthn.jeff wrote:

ConanTroutman wrote:

Bullion wrote:

Napier Phoenix wrote:

Ryan wrote:

theprof wrote:

none of the above is going to happen with an ownership group who wants to turn a profit before all other things.

What? We're not CCM here spending the minimum, this team is very expensive it's just not performing. In fact, our ownership group has never expressed any desire to make a profit - let alone make one before all other things. They've said that the end goal is for the team to be self sufficient, right now they're spending millions a season on it.

I know for a fact that at least one of the consortium sees the Phoenix as purely philanthropic, and others have expressed in the media their desire to do this for Wellington, and to use it as a vehicle to do more for the city.

What we need though is a decent coach who is given free range, no more of this football comity business. We've seen time and time again what a good coach can do for a mediocre team, and this team is in fact a good team that is underperforming so there is a huge amount of potential.

I can only say rubbish!!!!

The fact that the team is expensive only means that the Nix ownership don't know enough about running a football business and they are not successful at it.

And I'm sorry, a good coach can do nothing for a mediocre team that is lasting, one or two good performances perhaps but at A League level you need good players that perform - full stop.

The view that this is a good team is just a fallacy, absolutely no evidence to support that. At almost every turn they are shown to be wanting and not up to A League standard. Some of you have to stop deluding yourself, the table doesn't lie especially when we are filling the bottom slots every bloody year......

I would say the team, envisaged on how Ernie wanted to set up, is a good team. WeeMac, Roly and Finkler are good HAL midfielders, Kosta and Krishna are good HAL attackers, Dura and Rossi are good HAL defenders (Rossi very good), Moss is a good HAL 'keeper. The others around the first team, Doyle, Lia, ARod have proven to be competent HAL players over the season and Tratt has surprisingly been decent.

I thought there were a couple of issues with the team, pressing with Finkler in the team and possession football with Moss as 'keeper.

Otherwise we're performing worse than the sum of our parts.

The problem is that Ernie's tactics relied on fullbacks contributing massively and a solid DM who could tackle, screen and pass. In Ernie's best year we had Manny and Boxall who were both in rollicking form in the FB roles and Riera at his peak at DM was the best in that role in the competition. In this season's squad, with Ernie's preferred starters the FBs and DM were arguably the weakest players relative to the competition standard. If you adjust tactically to cover those weaknesses (don't have the FBs push forward, play 2 DMs, don't transition as quickly, etc) then it becomes apparent that the mix of players you have isn't really right for any other approach. You can shoehorn them into a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 but not without some of those "good" players playing out of position or not playing at all. Which is why I argue that although there are some good players it's not actually a good squad. It also makes it harder for Des and Greenie to find a way to play and any future manager to impose his style, because a lot of those guys are contracted beyond this season.

while Boxall Mannie and Rierra were factors, Burns and his goals far outweigh those. He went off the boil, we turned to shark

Fair point, but on paper at least there wasn't much difference between Burns when we signed him and Kosta at the start of last season. And I think that at least part of the reason Burns went off the boil is that other sides figured out how to counter our tactics.

Both points actually reinforce the argument that the squad isn't that good because it's setup to play a style which only worked for half a season with a key player in once-in-a-lifetime form

I think your find that Burns skill set and match awareness is miles ahead of Kosta.

February 21, 2017 00:02

ConanTroutman

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Marto wrote:

ConanTroutman wrote:

sthn.jeff wrote:

ConanTroutman wrote:

Bullion wrote:

Napier Phoenix wrote:

Ryan wrote:

theprof wrote:

none of the above is going to happen with an ownership group who wants to turn a profit before all other things.

What? We're not CCM here spending the minimum, this team is very expensive it's just not performing. In fact, our ownership group has never expressed any desire to make a profit - let alone make one before all other things. They've said that the end goal is for the team to be self sufficient, right now they're spending millions a season on it.

I know for a fact that at least one of the consortium sees the Phoenix as purely philanthropic, and others have expressed in the media their desire to do this for Wellington, and to use it as a vehicle to do more for the city.

What we need though is a decent coach who is given free range, no more of this football comity business. We've seen time and time again what a good coach can do for a mediocre team, and this team is in fact a good team that is underperforming so there is a huge amount of potential.

I can only say rubbish!!!!

The fact that the team is expensive only means that the Nix ownership don't know enough about running a football business and they are not successful at it.

And I'm sorry, a good coach can do nothing for a mediocre team that is lasting, one or two good performances perhaps but at A League level you need good players that perform - full stop.

The view that this is a good team is just a fallacy, absolutely no evidence to support that. At almost every turn they are shown to be wanting and not up to A League standard. Some of you have to stop deluding yourself, the table doesn't lie especially when we are filling the bottom slots every bloody year......

I would say the team, envisaged on how Ernie wanted to set up, is a good team. WeeMac, Roly and Finkler are good HAL midfielders, Kosta and Krishna are good HAL attackers, Dura and Rossi are good HAL defenders (Rossi very good), Moss is a good HAL 'keeper. The others around the first team, Doyle, Lia, ARod have proven to be competent HAL players over the season and Tratt has surprisingly been decent.

I thought there were a couple of issues with the team, pressing with Finkler in the team and possession football with Moss as 'keeper.

Otherwise we're performing worse than the sum of our parts.

The problem is that Ernie's tactics relied on fullbacks contributing massively and a solid DM who could tackle, screen and pass. In Ernie's best year we had Manny and Boxall who were both in rollicking form in the FB roles and Riera at his peak at DM was the best in that role in the competition. In this season's squad, with Ernie's preferred starters the FBs and DM were arguably the weakest players relative to the competition standard. If you adjust tactically to cover those weaknesses (don't have the FBs push forward, play 2 DMs, don't transition as quickly, etc) then it becomes apparent that the mix of players you have isn't really right for any other approach. You can shoehorn them into a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 but not without some of those "good" players playing out of position or not playing at all. Which is why I argue that although there are some good players it's not actually a good squad. It also makes it harder for Des and Greenie to find a way to play and any future manager to impose his style, because a lot of those guys are contracted beyond this season.

while Boxall Mannie and Rierra were factors, Burns and his goals far outweigh those. He went off the boil, we turned to shark

Fair point, but on paper at least there wasn't much difference between Burns when we signed him and Kosta at the start of last season. And I think that at least part of the reason Burns went off the boil is that other sides figured out how to counter our tactics.

Both points actually reinforce the argument that the squad isn't that good because it's setup to play a style which only worked for half a season with a key player in once-in-a-lifetime form

I think your find that Burns skill set and match awareness is miles ahead of Kosta.

Was thinking more in terms of pedigree and previous goal scoring record. Neither of them had scored a lot of goals previously, and both had been touted as big talents, gone off to Europe, struggled and then came back to the A League. Which is why I said that on paper aat least leading into the season they look comparable.

February 21, 2017 06:53

ConanTroutman

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Ryan wrote:

They don't reinforce the fact that the squad itself isn't good, just that the tactics and recruitment aren't.

The squad is clearly worse than the sum of its parts, still the quality of the players should mean that we're closer to first than to last.

I don't think it's a good squad if you can't put your best players in their best positions in a formation which works. We don't have a striker who is right for leading the line by himself (Krishna too small, Watson too young and raw, Smeltz lost too much pace with age), we don't have 2 good enough CMs to play a 4-4-2, and if we go with a diamond midfield then our fullbacks aren't good enough to do the extra work that shape requires. Roly and Gui both like to dwell on the ball, so if you play them together the tempo slows right down. Kosta is at his best when he has a target man to cross to, but Krishna is better running onto through balls in the middle of the park. There's just no way you can put all our pieces together into a cohesive whole.

February 21, 2017 07:29

Outpost

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And yet if a Popovic, an Arnold or an Ange had this same squad I guarantee they'd be getting a lot more out of it. Even Okon and Jones at CCM and the Jets are achieving better results than us with obviously inferior squads.

February 21, 2017 09:00

patrick478

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Listen here Fudgeface

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15K

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about 14 years

Outpost wrote:

And yet if a Popovic, an Arnold or an Ange had this same squad I guarantee they'd be getting a lot more out of it. Even Okon and Jones at CCM and the Jets are achieving better results than us with obviously inferior squads.

CCM are behind us on the table though?

February 21, 2017 09:06

Napier Phoenix

Life and death

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about 17 years

Marto wrote:

Doloras wrote:

Well, if I'm wrong and it has nothing to do with overall Wellington culture: why do so many great players come here and turn to crap? Especially in the last three seasons: I list Weemac, Roly and Kosta again as my prime examples. Is it just a club culture thing?

It's not just Wellington. The same happened in Auckland. I think it's a New Zealand thing.... too laid back maybe?

A NZ football thing if anything. We don't have that same problem with rugby do we?

February 21, 2017 09:39

Ryan

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Acfc seem to have the opposite problem, the warriors in the other hand have the same problem as us but worse.

February 21, 2017 09:44

Jerzy Merino

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970

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over 11 years

Ryan wrote:

Acfc seem to have the opposite problem, the warriors in the other hand have the same problem as us but worse.

So many crap players come here and play great. Lol. I like it. Gotta be the Ramon effect. No other explanation.

February 21, 2017 09:48

Jag

Not Elite enough

730

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8K

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almost 17 years

ConanTroutman wrote:

Ryan wrote:

They don't reinforce the fact that the squad itself isn't good, just that the tactics and recruitment aren't.

The squad is clearly worse than the sum of its parts, still the quality of the players should mean that we're closer to first than to last.

I don't think it's a good squad if you can't put your best players in their best positions in a formation which works. We don't have a striker who is right for leading the line by himself (Krishna too small, Watson too young and raw, Smeltz lost too much pace with age), we don't have 2 good enough CMs to play a 4-4-2, and if we go with a diamond midfield then our fullbacks aren't good enough to do the extra work that shape requires. Roly and Gui both like to dwell on the ball, so if you play them together the tempo slows right down. Kosta is at his best when he has a target man to cross to, but Krishna is better running onto through balls in the middle of the park. There's just no way you can put all our pieces together into a cohesive whole.

In terms of the players we have, it's not a bad squad. Not the best in the league, but certainly not the worst. Problem is that as a squad, as you've suggested, it's massively unbalanced which leads to huge problems. While I know that we can't just waltz out and pick up any quality player we want whenever we feel like it, there have to be questions asked about our recruitment.

February 21, 2017 09:48

ConanTroutman

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I don't deny that a better manager might be able to eat more out of them but I don't think we've got a squad which should definitely be doing that much better than we are. Definitely not a top 4 squad IMO.

February 21, 2017 10:48

ballane

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Think you have said it Jag it's the balance of the squad that seems to cause us problems. Has always been an issue we seem to be always trying to convert a player from what we brought him for to something else. Yes some may have worked but others not. Does seem that our recruitment has never been one of the strong features of the club.

February 21, 2017 11:00

LG

Legend

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almost 17 years

Burns's form dried up with that Asian Cup. That break ruined our good run of form too.

February 21, 2017 12:31

Ryan

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I think Burns form dried up when other teams figured out how to deal with the team, and then our plan b did his ACL.

February 21, 2017 16:14

Ryan

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I wonder when this crisis meeting of the football commitee is supposed to take place.

February 21, 2017 16:16 · Edited February 21, 2017 16:17

Napier Phoenix

Life and death

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about 17 years

I'm sorry there are a number of delusional people in here. We are not a side full of good players, we are a side full of players that are not up to the required standard to be a winning team in the A League. No matter whatever else the problems might be, we need a clean out.

February 21, 2017 17:45

Ryan

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Look at WSW in their first season or even Sydney FC this year compared to last.

You'd actually be surprised how well so called sub-standard players can perform in the right environment.

February 21, 2017 18:23

2ndBest

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Appiah without the pace

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19K

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over 16 years

Ryan wrote:

I think Burns form dried up when other teams figured out how to deal with the team, and then our plan b did his ACL.

I think it dired up when he started getting big money offers from overseas.

February 21, 2017 18:59

Outpost

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patrick478 wrote:

Outpost wrote:

And yet if a Popovic, an Arnold or an Ange had this same squad I guarantee they'd be getting a lot more out of it. Even Okon and Jones at CCM and the Jets are achieving better results than us with obviously inferior squads.

CCM are behind us on the table though?

Sure, but I would argue that the only truly commendable result we've managed this season is the 3-0 over MV. Apart from that there has been little of note and 11 of our 19 points have come against teams currently lower down the table than us . Mariners by contrast have had two wins against Perth, one of them away, as well as away wins against WSW and Adelaide and a number of other gutsy away draws against better teams. That's pretty respectable.

I'm not saying this just to kick the Nix yet again, just to point out that a good coach can wring surprisingly good performances out of a weak squad.

February 21, 2017 19:04

C-Diddy

Chant Savant

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almost 17 years

Just read this article (http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-league/39019432) about the Toronto Wolfpack, a Rugby League team who have just joined the third teir of English Rugby League.

The interesting thing for me is how their fixtures are scheduled. They will play five games at a time home then five games away.

Is this something the Phoenix could learn from? Could restructuring our fixtures in a pattern of maybe 3 home and 3 away be something they should be speaking to the FFA about?

February 21, 2017 20:01

Doloras

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Opinion Privileges revoked

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over 14 years

Ryan wrote:

You'd actually be surprised how well so called sub-standard players can perform in the right environment.

Eg 2010 All Whites

February 21, 2017 20:39

Fenix

Starting XI

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over 16 years

Jaickin wrote:

I think there's plenty to say about what needs to be improved on the field, but here's an off-the-field thing we can improve on:

Our target audience. With the new Fox deal, we've had a lot of Saturday night games instead of Sunday afternoons. As we all know, the Phoenix brand them self as an extremely family-friendly club and most of their marketing seems to target specifically family's and kids. Unfortunately its easier to take kids to afternoon games, instead of the abundance of night time games we've had this season.

What if the Phoenix marketing staff turned their focus to more teenagers/young adults? They could really focus on the Yellow Fever experience, the chanting, drumming, drinking etc. Right now to a lot of my friends (who are around 19-21 years old) they think the Phoenix are quite 'lame' and 'cheesy'. This could be down to both how the club performs on the field and how the club markets itself.

You can see the effects on the Wellington Sevens attendances before and after it was advertised as one big party. Perhaps the opposite could be true for us? Or would this alienate the family/kids we have been targeting for awhile?

It doesnt have to be one or the other, there are 35,000 seats, plenty of room for everyone. If 19-21 year olds think the Phoenix is cheesy, I dont think some lame ad is gonna change their mind

February 21, 2017 21:46

Jaickin

WeeNix

440

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800

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almost 9 years

Fenix wrote:

Jaickin wrote:

I think there's plenty to say about what needs to be improved on the field, but here's an off-the-field thing we can improve on:

Our target audience. With the new Fox deal, we've had a lot of Saturday night games instead of Sunday afternoons. As we all know, the Phoenix brand them self as an extremely family-friendly club and most of their marketing seems to target specifically family's and kids. Unfortunately its easier to take kids to afternoon games, instead of the abundance of night time games we've had this season.

What if the Phoenix marketing staff turned their focus to more teenagers/young adults? They could really focus on the Yellow Fever experience, the chanting, drumming, drinking etc. Right now to a lot of my friends (who are around 19-21 years old) they think the Phoenix are quite 'lame' and 'cheesy'. This could be down to both how the club performs on the field and how the club markets itself.

You can see the effects on the Wellington Sevens attendances before and after it was advertised as one big party. Perhaps the opposite could be true for us? Or would this alienate the family/kids we have been targeting for awhile?

It doesnt have to be one or the other, there are 35,000 seats, plenty of room for everyone. If 19-21 year olds think the Phoenix is cheesy, I dont think some lame ad is gonna change their mind

Agreed it doesn't have to be one or another. However there's a lot more than a 'lame ad' the marketing team can look to do to try and bring more of that particular demographic through the turnstiles. For example:

Higher presence of advertisement/giveaways/player appearances in university's such as Vic
10 dollar tickets for university students
Discounted booze (Could be made slightly more plausible with the Garage Project partnership) with student ID
Heck, players can bring spare tickets with them when they go out grocery shopping etc. so if anyone recognises them and stops them, they could offer a free ticket after a selfie/autograph etc.
Free 3-game memberships to those participating in university football/U21s and below.
And of-course highlighting the shenanigans of the Yellow Fever as a selling point as mentioned earlier.

I'm not saying that they should fully focus on getting young people to the game, but the whole point of a marketing team is to get people through the gates and be creative with fan engagement. Of course some of these ideas may not be plausible with the budget at hand, but there are different options than a lame ad. Yes a lame ad won't change people's minds, hence why my OP was calling for a change of how they could market to a different demographic. (While of course not forgetting about the families/kids etc)

If the statement that '19-21 years olds think the Phoenix are cheesy' is true, then instead of the club resoponding with 'eh we can't change their mind' they could ask themselves 'What can we do to improve' Hence why I participated in this thread

February 22, 2017 15:05 · Edited February 22, 2017 15:06

Bananas

Starting XI

4K

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3.6K

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about 10 years

Jaickin wrote:

Fenix wrote:

Jaickin wrote:

I think there's plenty to say about what needs to be improved on the field, but here's an off-the-field thing we can improve on:

Our target audience. With the new Fox deal, we've had a lot of Saturday night games instead of Sunday afternoons. As we all know, the Phoenix brand them self as an extremely family-friendly club and most of their marketing seems to target specifically family's and kids. Unfortunately its easier to take kids to afternoon games, instead of the abundance of night time games we've had this season.

What if the Phoenix marketing staff turned their focus to more teenagers/young adults? They could really focus on the Yellow Fever experience, the chanting, drumming, drinking etc. Right now to a lot of my friends (who are around 19-21 years old) they think the Phoenix are quite 'lame' and 'cheesy'. This could be down to both how the club performs on the field and how the club markets itself.

You can see the effects on the Wellington Sevens attendances before and after it was advertised as one big party. Perhaps the opposite could be true for us? Or would this alienate the family/kids we have been targeting for awhile?

It doesnt have to be one or the other, there are 35,000 seats, plenty of room for everyone. If 19-21 year olds think the Phoenix is cheesy, I dont think some lame ad is gonna change their mind

Agreed it doesn't have to be one or another. However there's a lot more than a 'lame ad' the marketing team can look to do to try and bring more of that particular demographic through the turnstiles. For example:

Higher presence of advertisement/giveaways/player appearances in university's such as Vic
10 dollar tickets for university students
Discounted booze (Could be made slightly more plausible with the Garage Project partnership) with student ID
Heck, players can bring spare tickets with them when they go out grocery shopping etc. so if anyone recognises them and stops them, they could offer a free ticket after a selfie/autograph etc.
Free 3-game memberships to those participating in university football/U21s and below.
And of-course highlighting the shenanigans of the Yellow Fever as a selling point as mentioned earlier.

I'm not saying that they should fully focus on getting young people to the game, but the whole point of a marketing team is to get people through the gates and be creative with fan engagement. Of course some of these ideas may not be plausible with the budget at hand, but there are different options than a lame ad. Yes a lame ad won't change people's minds, hence why my OP was calling for a change of how they could market to a different demographic. (While of course not forgetting about the families/kids etc)

If the statement that '19-21 years olds think the Phoenix are cheesy' is true, then instead of the club resoponding with 'eh we can't change their mind' they could ask themselves 'What can we do to improve' Hence why I participated in this thread

RE: $10 tickets for uni students, isnt it $45 for a season pass for Uni Students?

Also players carrying freebie tickets on them would get around, then they would get annoyed in their every day life. I'm sure WeeMac doesn't want a bunch of people asking for tickets while he buys condoms.

February 22, 2017 15:16

ballane

Marquee

3.7K

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5.8K

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about 17 years

Why bother aiming it at that market aim it at the market that dosnt want everything at a FN discount.Have seen nothing to suggest thats the market they should be aiming at.Win them over from a younger age than that and hopefully by the time they get to that age they are already fans.Plus why the F should they get discounted booze over other fans.

February 22, 2017 17:10

Leggy

tradition and history

1.5K

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9.9K

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almost 17 years

Ryan wrote:

Look at WSW in their first season or even Sydney FC this year compared to last.

You'd actually be surprised how well so called sub-standard players can perform in the right environment.

So what is the right environment?

February 22, 2017 17:49

C-Diddy

Chant Savant

2.5K

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12K

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almost 17 years

Leggy wrote:

Ryan wrote:

Look at WSW in their first season or even Sydney FC this year compared to last.

You'd actually be surprised how well so called sub-standard players can perform in the right environment.

So what is the right environment?

Sydney

February 22, 2017 18:31

reg22

Starting XI

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4.1K

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about 17 years

Doloras wrote:

Well, if I'm wrong and it has nothing to do with overall Wellington culture: why do so many great players come here and turn to crap? Especially in the last three seasons: I list Weemac, Roly and Kosta again as my prime examples. Is it just a club culture thing?

this is a good point

for a long time i called it 'liverpool syndrome' where good players would arrive, deteriorate, then be sold to third rate eastern european sides. there was just something about liverpool that made players worse

i'm not sure about the city, but this is definitely a club thing

one thing is for sure, kosta has only ever played well for ange and weemac has only ever played well for g. arnold

conversely, it always seemed to me that smeltz made his name, and his millions, off one amazing season at the nix under ricki

February 23, 2017 20:53

reg22

Starting XI

1.8K

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4.1K

·

about 17 years

C-Diddy wrote:

Leggy wrote:

Ryan wrote:

Look at WSW in their first season or even Sydney FC this year compared to last.

You'd actually be surprised how well so called sub-standard players can perform in the right environment.

So what is the right environment?

Sydney

Sydney were a shambles for so long

The right environment is Graham Arnold

February 23, 2017 20:57

Ryan

Marquee

7.1K

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9.4K

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over 13 years

reg22 wrote:

C-Diddy wrote:

Leggy wrote:

Ryan wrote:

Look at WSW in their first season or even Sydney FC this year compared to last.

You'd actually be surprised how well so called sub-standard players can perform in the right environment.

So what is the right environment?

Sydney

Sydney were a shambles for so long

The right environment is Graham Arnold

Exactly my point. "Average" players can look like stars with the right coaching and management.

February 24, 2017 00:19

Ryan

Marquee

7.1K

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9.4K

·

over 13 years

reg22 wrote:

Doloras wrote:

Well, if I'm wrong and it has nothing to do with overall Wellington culture: why do so many great players come here and turn to crap? Especially in the last three seasons: I list Weemac, Roly and Kosta again as my prime examples. Is it just a club culture thing?

this is a good point

for a long time i called it 'liverpool syndrome' where good players would arrive, deteriorate, then be sold to third rate eastern european sides. there was just something about liverpool that made players worse

i'm not sure about the city, but this is definitely a club thing

one thing is for sure, kosta has only ever played well for ange and weemac has only ever played well for g. arnold

conversely, it always seemed to me that smeltz made his name, and his millions, off one amazing season at the nix under ricki

It's nothing to do with Wellington and everything to do with the club. At least in my line of work Wellington is a city of high achievers.

Kosta also played pretty well under Muscat.

February 24, 2017 00:20

sthn.jeff

Marquee

2.1K

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6.4K

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over 14 years

reg22 wrote:

Doloras wrote:

Well, if I'm wrong and it has nothing to do with overall Wellington culture: why do so many great players come here and turn to crap? Especially in the last three seasons: I list Weemac, Roly and Kosta again as my prime examples. Is it just a club culture thing?

this is a good point

for a long time i called it 'liverpool syndrome' where good players would arrive, deteriorate, then be sold to third rate eastern european sides. there was just something about liverpool that made players worse

i'm not sure about the city, but this is definitely a club thing

one thing is for sure, kosta has only ever played well for ange and weemac has only ever played well for g. arnold

conversely, it always seemed to me that smeltz made his name, and his millions, off one amazing season at the nix under ricki

you are having a laugh about Smeltz.

Wikipedia is your friend. Go and have a look at his goal scoring record in the A League

February 24, 2017 07:10

reg22

Starting XI

1.8K

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4.1K

·

about 17 years

sthn.jeff wrote:

reg22 wrote:

Doloras wrote:

Well, if I'm wrong and it has nothing to do with overall Wellington culture: why do so many great players come here and turn to crap? Especially in the last three seasons: I list Weemac, Roly and Kosta again as my prime examples. Is it just a club culture thing?

this is a good point

for a long time i called it 'liverpool syndrome' where good players would arrive, deteriorate, then be sold to third rate eastern european sides. there was just something about liverpool that made players worse

i'm not sure about the city, but this is definitely a club thing

one thing is for sure, kosta has only ever played well for ange and weemac has only ever played well for g. arnold

conversely, it always seemed to me that smeltz made his name, and his millions, off one amazing season at the nix under ricki

you are having a laugh about Smeltz.

Wikipedia is your friend. Go and have a look at his goal scoring record in the A League

where in my post did i say that smeltz didn't have an amazing goalscoring record?

i'll elaborate on my point for your benefit... in his last season at the phoenix he was absolutely astonishing in terms of creating and finishing. he tore the league up. he became a million dollar player. he hasn't reached that level since.

February 24, 2017 14:12

sthn.jeff

Marquee

2.1K

·

6.4K

·

over 14 years

reg22 wrote:

sthn.jeff wrote:

reg22 wrote:

Doloras wrote:

Well, if I'm wrong and it has nothing to do with overall Wellington culture: why do so many great players come here and turn to crap? Especially in the last three seasons: I list Weemac, Roly and Kosta again as my prime examples. Is it just a club culture thing?

this is a good point

for a long time i called it 'liverpool syndrome' where good players would arrive, deteriorate, then be sold to third rate eastern european sides. there was just something about liverpool that made players worse

i'm not sure about the city, but this is definitely a club thing

one thing is for sure, kosta has only ever played well for ange and weemac has only ever played well for g. arnold

conversely, it always seemed to me that smeltz made his name, and his millions, off one amazing season at the nix under ricki

you are having a laugh about Smeltz.

Wikipedia is your friend. Go and have a look at his goal scoring record in the A League

where in my post did i say that smeltz didn't have an amazing goalscoring record?

i'll elaborate on my point for your benefit... in his last season at the phoenix he was absolutely astonishing in terms of creating and finishing. he tore the league up. he became a million dollar player. he hasn't reached that level since.

goal scoring record at Gold Coast better than he achieved here. So while he may have announced his arrival while here. He confirmed his class at Gold Coast.

February 24, 2017 16:29

reg22

Starting XI

1.8K

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4.1K

·

about 17 years

sthn.jeff wrote:

reg22 wrote:

sthn.jeff wrote:

reg22 wrote:

Doloras wrote:

Well, if I'm wrong and it has nothing to do with overall Wellington culture: why do so many great players come here and turn to crap? Especially in the last three seasons: I list Weemac, Roly and Kosta again as my prime examples. Is it just a club culture thing?

this is a good point

for a long time i called it 'liverpool syndrome' where good players would arrive, deteriorate, then be sold to third rate eastern european sides. there was just something about liverpool that made players worse

i'm not sure about the city, but this is definitely a club thing

one thing is for sure, kosta has only ever played well for ange and weemac has only ever played well for g. arnold

conversely, it always seemed to me that smeltz made his name, and his millions, off one amazing season at the nix under ricki

you are having a laugh about Smeltz.

Wikipedia is your friend. Go and have a look at his goal scoring record in the A League

where in my post did i say that smeltz didn't have an amazing goalscoring record?

i'll elaborate on my point for your benefit... in his last season at the phoenix he was absolutely astonishing in terms of creating and finishing. he tore the league up. he became a million dollar player. he hasn't reached that level since.

goal scoring record at Gold Coast better than he achieved here. So while he may have announced his arrival while here. He confirmed his class at Gold Coast.

ok then

February 24, 2017 16:42