Culture wars on the forum: amateur sociology

Obviously I'm not recording statistics on everyone that applies for a job, but it's the same industry and the contrast is stark. What I can say is that pretty much all the females in this office are young and attractive. My previous work place had more of a variety of appearances. I also run a large meetup group in Wellington for people in this industry and the people who struggle the most to find jobs always seem to be overweight and older females.

I think ultimately it seems like we agree. Perhaps I am giving a misconception that I think nothing needs to change. I definitely think things need to change, but I think forcing companies to have 50/50 splits in gender representation is a terrible way to go about it. 

Somehow, and I don't know how, we need to stop people in key roles preventing equality-of-opportunity. 

By the way where do you work, I'm applying! (just kidding just kidding)

I need to find some serious time to work on this... I can't cite the evidence off the top of my head so need to research, but this is just not correct. Men and women are different due to far more significant reasons than society. It is backed up by very good studies, a lot of them.

Just one I remember was with bonobos. They too select gender specific toys that match their genders, when given the choice. In fact any animal that is smart enough to be studied in this way has shown the same results. 

Females are more naturally attuned to faces. Straight out of the womb, with no societal influence whatsoever, it is known that male babies predominantly focus on their physical surroundings, while female babies will focus almost entirely on the face and eyes of people around her. There is no influence there from society, that is the baby doing what it wants. Females mostly want to focus on people, males mostly want to focus on things. 

Evolution has played a key role here, not just society. We are physically AND mentally how we are as a result of millions of years evolving, and naturally becoming better at our respective roles. To rip that out and start fresh is something we're just not evolved for. Our brains will not change to match societal changes, and unhappiness will be more prevalent. 

I actually don't work for this company, I work for a client of theirs but we're based in their office while there's a big project on. My job is really good, we're building things which are going to save lives, but I'm not going to go into it here because they probably won't want to be associated with this thread.

But as you say equal representation doesn't take into account the requirements of certain industries (but I didn't just mean gender, I meant all things being equal you'd expect all groups within a community to be represented in a business in roughly the percentages that they're represented in the community as a whole) .

As Bullion said, a lot of the behavior and roles that we say are female roles or male roles are just based on society pressure, there is a certain amount of biology obviously but not as big as you'd expect. 

Anyway, it's kind of all moot, automation is going to put us all out of work sooner or later.

Well yep, there it is, when it comes down to it.

Which brings me to Universal Basic Income, of which I am a big fan. 

I feel it is inevitable, but I worry we won't be able to let go of traditional welfare systems, and it will be an expensive tag-on, rather than an efficient replacement. 

A great podcast to listen to that I am on at the moment is the Sam Harris interview with Neill Ferguson. It's quite recent, worth a listen, it's under Sam Harris' podcast "Waking Up". Recommend it. 

Also, a couple of the things I've mentioned were discussed in a great way in the book "Tribe" by Sebastian Junger. Cannot recommend that book enough, mindblowingly interesting. 

I think you need to define modern era. Those statues are definitely not modern! 

Just back from my walk around the park at lunchtime and say this gender fluid person in the park wearing a t shirt that said in bold letters "we should all be feminists".

Why should everyone be a feminist? Who has the right to tell anyone what to believe in?

What if someone doesn't want to be a feminist, or doesnt want to be any "ist" or "ism" out there? What you going to do? 

I was going go up and talk to the gender fluid person but I figured they would probably cry "harrasment' and be incapable of any real dialogue :D

I am most certainly not far right.

I am passionate about the environment and animals but when it comes to humans and their behaviour I am just an observer. People can be good and people can be bad.

People are very complex and also highly flawed. Why would I want to nail my colours to anyone else's mast? By doing so my own personal stock will rise and fall with the perceived merits of the group/ideology I have aligned myself with. Groups are made up of individuals and individuals are inherently flawed....sounds like a whole lot of hassle I don't need in my life.

No, I stand firmly on my own two feet and make my own mind up about issues and I have a total aversion to following any leader.

The thing is right now the only people trying to tell me what I can or cannot do are the SJW crowd. Trust me, if the right tried to tell me what to do they would get exactly the same response. a big fudge off

Sounds like a lyric. Just saying.

Good thread though.

Well the ones that we're talking about are Jim Crow era which is late 1890s to mid 1960s which is generation's after NZ law became colour blind.

I do think by definition you are either a feminist (believe in gender equality) or you’re sexist (whether it be toward male of female). 

Internet feminism has gone a bit crazy though. It really needs a different name, because a lot of it isn’t feminism at all. 

Tegal , what is "internet feminism"?

Yeah definitions have changed in the internet landscape nowadays. Egalitarianism (which I most certainly agree with) has replaced feminism, and feminism has replaced off-the-rails social justice. It's such a negative buzzword nowadays that nobody wants to be associated with it.

A lazy term because I couldn’t be bothered being more descriptive. 

Slowly sifting through the comments. 

I keep thinking this. "Keep in your head one word. Respect."

People call it feminazi.

If I was in the exact situation I would not have approached that person to voice my opinion, because I don't believe on the balance of probability that that person would respect my opinion, and I would fear recrimination and harm. 

Something I've seen online that is of relevance to this conversation: 

Some links:

Paper by Robin DiAngelo about "white fragility"

Why It's so hard to talk to white people about racism

Why white people freak out when they're called out about race

I watched this, it was really interesting. 

There could easily be other reasons for what they were seeing, some sort of stress around your own stereotype seems a long bow to draw. Although having said that, perhaps that is exactly what happened to me in that job application? If Steele is right here, then I will probably interview poorly if I get the chance, because I will be stressing about the stereotype of being a white male, which is a very negative one these days, and will have the thought in the back of my mind that if they have an equally good candidate who is, say, a black transgender person, then I'm probably not going to get the job. Even if that's not true, Steele tells me that my thought process means I might be thinking that, so I will perform worse than I should. I actually don't believe that though. If I was to go in thinking this way, it would give me a steel and determination to be on my game big time, to prove them wrong, to be better, to get that job, to win. 

Could it be that females are less confident in general when they sit math tests, even if well prepared, and that the statement given to them simply boosted confidence? I would like to see it happening the other way around. If it is true then males should behave the same - we need to get a test that females are better at, simply because of a supposed stereotype pressure on the men, despite them having equal ability, and test it similarly. That would be the true acid test to ensure this isn't an issue with females who sit math tests specifically, rather than something that can be applied across the board. 

However I don't see how all that refutes things like male/female babies showing clear and patterned differences in their preferences immediately out of the womb. That is real evidence of what I'm talking about, and something like Claude Steele is describing in no way touches that in terms of credibility (in my opinion of course).

Have you read anything of Jordan Peterson's? Another good psychologist, but with very different views. 

So is this what you hipsters with short hair and beards discuss in cafes in Wellington?

Sometimes I thank someone above, I live in Auckland

Whats with the black and white/all or nothing thinking?

I'm not a feminist and neither am I a sexist. I just see people around me as individuals that I interact with. I treat everyone with the same respect until they give me reason not to.

But according to you I am sexist!?

My approach to life and other people is very simple: I am friendly and respectful to everyone I meet until they give me reason to act otherwise.

I don't care if you are left, right, gay, ethiopian, black power, white power or whatever: I will treat you with respect so long as you reciprocate. I am interested in hearing why people are into the things they are into and the only way to find that out is to get to know them.

Everyone has a story and I want to hear it

However If you are not going to treat me with respect then I will jus not bother with you. Simple as that.

According to that definition you're a feminist whether you like it or not.

Wait. Are we still ripping on Hipster cods?

Next up we do a feature on Kaftan wearing, sandal wearing, Green Party voting, dope smokers. (I think I managed to get in all the stereotopical references?) Said with C Diddy's sense of humour in mind.

if you keep leaning left any further you're gonna fall off your perch buddy :D

feminism wants to assert its will and its beliefs onto others, so no there is no way I could ever be considered a feminist.

Dont get me started on students ?????

A Feminist is literally someone who believes in gender equality. Nothing more. 

It may have morphed into something more ugly as you suggest, which is why I said it really needs a new name, because that ain’t feminism - feminazi is a common term for what I earlier called ‘Internet feminism’. 

But I’m talking purely definition here. So it is black and white. 

You’re either a feminist, because you believe in gender equality, or you’re sexist because you don’t believe in gender equality. 

Whether you want to go around calling yourself a feminist or not is a different matter. If you’d rather not associate with that word, that doesn’t make you sexist. In fact, I’m the same. As was said above it’s turned into a real negative word, because of those people/feminazis who push their beliefs onto others and call it feminism (it’s not). 

Out of interest could you give us your definition of 'feminist?' 

Google defines it as: "the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes" 

My understanding is that if you believe in women having equal rights to men then you're a feminist, whether you want to be labelled as one or not, You tick all the criteria of being a feminist. Just to clarify: if you think women SHOULD have equal rights as men, you're a feminist, regardless of whether or not you believe they CURRENTLY HAVE these equal rights or not.  It doesn't mean you have to burn your bras, join the movement, and put 'feminist' on your CV. As Tegal said, you don't have to go around calling yourself a feminist. 

Another example if you happen to believe less than one God, by definition you're an atheist. Even if you don't want to be identified/consider yourself as one. 

Unfortunately the word 'feminism' has gained some sort of stigma, which makes people want to disassociate with it, despite (orginally) being for equal rights.

This new brand of feminism is commonly referred thirdwave feminism

This discussion has been interesting. 

I have learned quite a bit. 

Most important take-away: Ryan works with lots of hot chicks.

;)

I think I said a handful...

The irony of using Trump who's perpetually outraged and always the victim...

mmm a handful is a waste in my experience. don't want to be greedy right!?

Genders may be equal under the law but thats about it. Men and women are quite different in a lot of ways. Different need not be good or bad, just different and there's nowt wrong with difference, celebrate it.

I don't believe in this equality stuff as it is all so abstract and subjective: IMO People are not all equal, that is why some sit in the gutter begging and others are lording in up with hookers in fancy hotels. 

This obsession with making everyone equal flies in the face of the laws of nature, Like I said the best we can hope for is for people to all be equal under the law, the rest is all about doing the best you can with what you have. 

How do you explain black on black gun violence which claims thousands of black lives every year....at the hands of other blacks?

What can be done to remedy this terrible situation?

These the conversations I am more interested in hearing about but folk seem to prefer to be obsessed by statues 

time for blm to get real perhaps?

And this whole thing about "white supremacy" is just a tired old cliche now. There are plenty of white people in America struggling to get by, plenty of white people dying from drug overdoses induced by their desperate situation.

Ditch all this "us and them" BS and instead see that everyone is being played by the ELITE and the elite don't care what your RACE is so long as they are exploiting YOU.

Divide and conquer by the 1%