All Whites' Oceania/Asia Confederation Conundrum

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Phalio
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loyalgunner wrote:

That's a good idean and I think NZ football, OFC, and FIFA really need to consider it. It actually is a genius idea. Only problem is it would be geographically incorrect if Australia is part of AFC and some of the countries to the North of Australia (who are closer to the mainland of Asia) are in OFC. Maybe we should take the Phillipines, Singapore, Malaysia, Brunei, AND Australia to save confusion.
 
Well yeah ideally it would be great to get Australia back, but they wouldn't want to come back until after the OFC stirred up all that excitement. Hance why they'd have to start small.
June 01, 2007 15:51 · Edited September 09, 2012 16:56
Phalio
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Plus it wouldn't be the first time countries are in confederations that are geographically incorrect for them. Look at Israel, Guyana and Suriname.
June 01, 2007 15:53 · Edited September 09, 2012 16:56
loyalgunner
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It is safer to have Israel qualifying with the European teams though. I assume safety is the reason that they are with Europe anyway.
June 01, 2007 16:36 · Edited September 09, 2012 16:56
Strummerboy
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$$$$ from Confederations Cup and OFC suggests that Asia would be an embarrassing expensive option.
 
Take the cash, use it properly
June 22, 2007 17:56 · Edited September 09, 2012 16:56
bungrightknee
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NZ should join Asia. I guarantee it will be a home and away play off, similiar to what aussie always have to do to qualify for the world cup.

More play against quality opposition will no doubt better NZ football.

We've done it the hard way ('82) before, we can do it again.
June 25, 2007 01:23 · Edited September 09, 2012 16:56
bungrightknee
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Also do we really want to see AW vs the likes of Fiji, Vanuatu, Solomon Is, papua new guinea etc HOME AND AWAY or against Asian teams, got really sick of all those games at North Harbour Stadium.

Y not play more home games in other parts of the country, ie mix it up a bit (Chch, Wellington, Dunedin, as well as Akl)???

June 25, 2007 01:36 · Edited September 09, 2012 16:56
Forzy
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I guarentee we make World Cup 2010.
June 25, 2007 13:13 · Edited September 09, 2012 16:56
Marius Lacatus
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I keep chasing this debate across different strings ... looks like I need to wheel out my argument once more -
 
"We need to somehow get NZ within the Asian zone set up (whether via merging the two Federations or a NZ defection from Oceania). That is the only way we are going to get regular quality international football that matters (in form of Asian Cup and World Cup qualifying series), the only way we bring the likes of Nelsen back to play football on a regular basis and the only way we can really lift the All Whites profile and get the public interested in international football. World Cup qualifiers against the likes of Australia and Japan, with all our best players back on deck would attract excellent crowds and generate plenty of interest. It would give us something to get excited about - rather than 1 or 2 meaningful games every four years surrounded by a bunch of irrelevant friendlies that nobody wants to put in front of their own club football.
 
Being part of Oceania is great for our junior and women's teams getting to their respective World Cups - but as part of the Asian Federation they would actually get more consistent, high quality competition (rather than a stack of games against the Island nations and then three matches every four years at a World Cup). I think we would get much better value and development out of Asia."
June 25, 2007 17:03 · Edited September 09, 2012 16:56
Phalio
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Marius Lakatush wrote:
I keep chasing this debate across different strings ... looks like I need to wheel out my argument once more -
 
"We need to somehow get NZ within the Asian zone set up (whether via merging the two Federations or a NZ defection from Oceania). That is the only way we are going to get regular quality international football that matters (in form of Asian Cup and World Cup qualifying series), the only way we bring the likes of Nelsen back to play football on a regular basis and the only way we can really lift the All Whites profile and get the public interested in international football. World Cup qualifiers against the likes of Australia and Japan, with all our best players back on deck would attract excellent crowds and generate plenty of interest. It would give us something to get excited about - rather than 1 or 2 meaningful games every four years surrounded by a bunch of irrelevant friendlies that nobody wants to put in front of their own club football.
 
Being part of Oceania is great for our junior and women's teams getting to their respective World Cups - but as part of the Asian Federation they would actually get more consistent, high quality competition (rather than a stack of games against the Island nations and then three matches every four years at a World Cup). I think we would get much better value and development out of Asia."
I like my idea better.
June 26, 2007 15:54 · Edited September 09, 2012 16:56
Dragon
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Does anyone know how much money would come our way from AFC competitions compared with the Women and age-group teams qualifying for world cups?

It seems to me that the biggest argument people are advancing for the status quo is money - but is it really that significant a difference?Dragon2007-06-26 16:52:20
June 26, 2007 16:49 · Edited September 09, 2012 16:56
Big Pete 65
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Dragon wrote:

Does anyone know how much money would come our way from AFC competitions compared with the Women and age-group teams qualifying for world cups?

It seems to me that the biggest argument people are advancing for the status quo is money - but is it really that significant a difference?Dragon2007-06-26 16:52:20
And it now seems people have been very much mistaken in thinking we benefit more financially from remaining in Oceania - to me it's a scandal that this isn't common knowledge here in NZ (WTF are our football journalists doing when they can't do basic research like this and inform the public of the facts?) - but Australia are reaping huge financial returns from being in Asia.
The amount of dosh the Football Federation Australia are reaping from  Socceroos games in Asia makes our hope of income from things like qualifying for the Confederations Cup (whoops - that wasn't so certain after all!) and World Cup qualification look rather pathetic.
Seems the FFA are being paid $AU 1 MILLION (!!!!!) per Socceroos match in Asian comps by the Asian Football Confederation (their take from the huge TV revenues coming in now from international football in Asia).
See this report on the upcoming new TV deal for the FFA involving their media partner World Sports Group:
http://sportsbusinessinsider.com.au/opinion/the-rights-stuff-how-lowy-tinkler-deal-put-ffa-back-on-course-for-a-league-broadcast-bonanza/

"The confidence is because FFA has engaged the Singapore headquartered sports media, marketing and events company, World Sports Group, to sell the rights to the A-League in return for a sum believed to be in the vicinity of $35 million per annum. This is for the A-League only. Socceroos games are not included.

The rights to Socceroos games are already owned by World Sports Group and will continue to be until at least 2020 as set out in this announcement.

The fact that FFA has been able to package the Socceroos rights with the A-League to Fox Sports up until now is because World Sports Group allowed this to happen. Under the new arrangement, World Sports Group will retain the rights to Socceroos games as part of their long term AFC deal, but FFA will no longer be able to on-sell them.

Instead, they will receive around $1 million for each Socceroos game directly from the AFC – as do all member associations – which may well be a very good deal in light of the proposed anti-siphoning legislation that requires Socceroos qualifiers to be on free-to-air in a relatively small Australian television industry.

Although the TV rights have been presented as one of the impediments to more independence for the A-League and its owners – on the basis that the Socceroos rights accounted for around 70 percent of the total rights – the arrangement with World Sports Group for A-League rights shows this is not relevant.

All-up, when FFA announces the new deal for broadcast rights (TV plus digital), probably to come into effect one year early, it is likely be in the vicinity of $60 million per year made up of:

  • $35 million for the A-League, although World Sports Group could well retain a commission of around 20% for their work on behalf of FFA, which leaves a net payment of about $28 million per year.
  • the value of the Socceroos rights of between $15 million – $20 million, but which World Sports Group retains as they own the rights.
  • around $6 million for an average of six Socceroos matches per year from the AFC.
  • rights to any friendly matches which are FFA’s to sell if played at home, or if a host nation cedes rights to Australian audiences for an away match, and
  • a minimum of $4 million for the digital rights that are currently with Optus.
..... the net number that flows back to the game will be closer to $38 million per year: $13-$17 million more per annum than the current deal when digital rights are included.
  • _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  • Football Federation Australia has yearly revenue of about $AU 97 MILLION to work with annually - see the 2009 Annual Report (page 12) available online:

https://secure.ausport.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/429720/Football_Federation_Australia_Annual_Report_2009.pdf
Most of this would be from TV revenue. The sort of money we can only dream of stuck in the OFC backwater where it's hard to get games televised let alone generate income from them...
September 18, 2012 13:31
Big Pete 65
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Got this reply from Herald journo Terry Maddaford to my email to him on his report on the weekend where he advocates NZ stay in the OFC for reasons of financial gain, after I mentioned info from the report above about the substantial amount the FFA makes from TV coverage revenue. 

Can see his point about the cost of assembling age group sides to travel to games around Asia - but surely the TV money from Socceroos internationals would cover that and then leave some over?

His report (second half is on NZ staying in Oceania):

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10834212

His rely to me:

"Hi Peter

Yes, I agree with that but there is no TV income in the other grades and that is what is hitting FFA hard as it costs plenty just to assemble these teams and get them decent laed-up games. Those distances are much greater than Oceania team face. Cheers Terry"


September 18, 2012 23:28
Napier Phoenix
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Dragon wrote:
I'd love NZ to join Asia, as the higher quality of the confederation has only got to be good for the game in NZ long term.
 
We aren't asia, but then neither are the Aussies, and there are plenty of blonde heads in the some of the central Asian sides (all the .........stans).
 
I actually wonder if Asia needs to be cut in two - Central Asia and the Middle East in one confederation, South & East Asia and the Pacific in the other.
 
Of course I'd expect that the most likely best outcome would be that the confederations stay as they are, but the top Oceania team joins the Asian qualifying process at some point.
Dragon2007-05-11 04:30:26
How about this as an idea out of left field.... expand Oceania by adding the countries around the Pacific Rim? Japan, Australia, Korea, China, Indonesia, etc and leave the Indias, Arabs and Stans in Asia.
September 19, 2012 06:36
aitkenmike
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Napier Phoenix wrote:

Dragon wrote:
I'd love NZ to join Asia, as the higher quality of the confederation has only got to be good for the game in NZ long term.
 
We aren't asia, but then neither are the Aussies, and there are plenty of blonde heads in the some of the central Asian sides (all the .........stans).
 
I actually wonder if Asia needs to be cut in two - Central Asia and the Middle East in one confederation, South & East Asia and the Pacific in the other.
 
Of course I'd expect that the most likely best outcome would be that the confederations stay as they are, but the top Oceania team joins the Asian qualifying process at some point.
Dragon2007-05-11 04:30:26
How about this as an idea out of left field.... expand Oceania by adding the countries around the Pacific Rim? Japan, Australia, Korea, China, Indonesia, etc and leave the Indias, Arabs and Stans in Asia.

Has been talked about before - the split into East and West Asia. Two issues are East Asia losing the cash rich Middle Eastern countries, and also how to go about splitting WC spots.  West Asia would likely push pretty hard for 2.5 slots each and they have a lot of political power and cash to get it, which would leave Aus, Japan, Nth and Sth Korea, China and us all competing for much more limited spots.

My ideal outcome is for the top 2 Oceania qualifiers to join the final group stage of the Asian qualification.  The final group would then have 2 pools of 6 (rather than the 5 now, so Asia loses no teams) and the two 3rd place sides in the group would get the final slot.  This would give us at least 10 meaningful qualifcation games where we have a chance (but by no means a certainty, or maybe even a probability) of qualifying, and wouldn't leave us relying on getting up and performing in 2 games without competitive buildup, which, as Australia knows well, is no easy task.  It also would give a chance for the top Island countries to improve aswell.
September 19, 2012 12:54 · Edited September 19, 2012 12:55
MetalLegNZ
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TouchMe wrote:
no.
 
Look at the simple facts, age group teams at youth world cups, women at senior world cups.
 
The men are getting quality fixtures now anyways and at the moment we get to play off the 6th placed Asian team for the w. cup. Would we make the top 6, no, this way its a one off game to glory, and anything can happen on a one off.
 
Youth w. cups are to important to loose, why do you think so many aussies are now overseas????
 
go oceania

Who the hell stole my name and made this post... i have been reborn as MetalLegNZ (forum issues), but i did not post the above???

I'm actually undecided, but think for now until atleast the next world cup we should saty out of Asia. Build up a solid nest egg and then go to Asia.

People are saying we will make more money playing in Asia, but i'm not sure we will. We already host enough games at a lost, If we continued to lose money playing in Asia it could cripple us long term and dry up the cash... no wait, just saw how much the FFA are set to make... lets do it, in another 6 years (2 more world cups please)

Too many young players also getting looked at now to stop, build up a more solid reputation world wide so that scouts actually come here as well before we leave for Asia.....

But more important;y who stole my FN ID!! I can't even get it back!!

September 19, 2012 23:21 · Edited September 19, 2012 23:30
MetalLegNZ
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lol - just saw the date 2007...

Maybe i did write it...

Time to revisit every other post i've ever written to make sure i don't argue with myself again. My schzophrenia is bad enough let along having myself argue with myself about what i wrote, or didn't write, but actually did write.....

Time to self Med

 

September 19, 2012 23:26
Sanday
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This is very funny.

MetalLegNZ wrote:


lol - just saw the date 2007...

Maybe i did write it...

Time to revisit every other post i've ever written to make sure i don't argue with myself again. My schzophrenia is bad enough let along having myself argue with myself about what i wrote, or didn't write, but actually did write.....

Time to self Med

 

September 20, 2012 04:17
LondonChris
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I really wish there was a 'like' button. One would go to big pete on his efforts and research above and the other would go to MetalLegNZ(aka TouchMe) for making me laugh.

September 20, 2012 19:49
Napier Phoenix
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LondonChris wrote:

I really wish there was a 'like' button. One would go to big pete on his efforts and research above and the other would go to MetalLegNZ(aka TouchMe) for making me laugh.

And a 3rd to you for your avatar
September 21, 2012 12:31
terminator_x
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We need to talk about Oceania.

1. Shambolic Oceania Nations Cup tournament run over one week, on the same sub-standard pitch, in blistering heat. Basically, a lottery.

2. Tahiti concede 24 goals in 3 games at Confeds Cup. Forget the patronising statements about them being 'plucky' and 'having a go' - it's a disgrace. It doesn't do them any good and doesn't do the tournament any good.

3. New Zealand miss Confeds Cup, partly through own incompetence but partly due to Point 1, severely damaging chances of qualifying for World Cup.

Yes, our kids get to qualify for lots of FIFA tournaments, but is that really doing them as much good as qualifying down a more competitive path and then actually being prepared when they get to a tournament?

Yes, the costs of travel in another arrangement might be higher but so might the rewards (TV money for one). Besides, there are probably options to limit the amount of travel other Oceania nations do until the later stages of qualifying, if they ever get there. Also, is there any obligation on us to worry about how the other Oceania nations will cope anyway?

So how do we sort this shit out?

June 24, 2013 11:25
TV
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terminator_x wrote:

We need to talk about Oceania.

1. Shambolic Oceania Nations Cup tournament run over one week, on the same sub-standard pitch, in blistering heat. Basically, a lottery.

2. Tahiti concede 24 goals in 3 games at Confeds Cup. Forget the patronising statements about them being 'plucky' and 'having a go' - it's a disgrace. It doesn't do them any good and doesn't do the tournament any good. 

3. New Zealand miss Confeds Cup, partly through own incompetence but partly due to Point 1, severely damaging chances of qualifying for World Cup.

Yes, our kids get to qualify for lots of FIFA tournaments, but is that really doing them as much good as qualifying down a more competitive path and then actually being prepared when they get to a tournament?

Yes, the costs of travel in another arrangement might be higher but so might the rewards (TV money for one). Besides, there are probably options to limit the amount of travel other Oceania nations do until the later stages of qualifying, if they ever get there. Also, is there any obligation on us to worry about how the other Oceania nations will cope anyway?

So how do we sort this shit out?


Totally agree. We need to move. Moving to AFC will also allow us to have a Phoenix youth side or at least force us to have one. Or something to that effect. 

June 24, 2013 12:42
Bullion
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terminator_x wrote:

We need to talk about Oceania.

1. Shambolic Oceania Nations Cup tournament run over one week, on the same sub-standard pitch, in blistering heat. Basically, a lottery.

2. Tahiti concede 24 goals in 3 games at Confeds Cup. Forget the patronising statements about them being 'plucky' and 'having a go' - it's a disgrace. It doesn't do them any good and doesn't do the tournament any good.

3. New Zealand miss Confeds Cup, partly through own incompetence but partly due to Point 1, severely damaging chances of qualifying for World Cup.

Yes, our kids get to qualify for lots of FIFA tournaments, but is that really doing them as much good as qualifying down a more competitive path and then actually being prepared when they get to a tournament?

Yes, the costs of travel in another arrangement might be higher but so might the rewards (TV money for one). Besides, there are probably options to limit the amount of travel other Oceania nations do until the later stages of qualifying, if they ever get there. Also, is there any obligation on us to worry about how the other Oceania nations will cope anyway?

So how do we sort this shit out?

I think the experience of Australia is good to look at. More international games at all levels of the game against better opposition. I'm not sure what the costs are for the increased amount of games, will age group competitions actually make money or will it all hinge on All Whites supposedly generating more revenue than they are now, does the AFC cover some of these? I know that ASB Prem teams wont be happy with the harder path to the CWC. Other than the issue of finances I think we should move to Asia.
June 24, 2013 12:45
Jeff Vader
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See the way I look at this, if we ditched OFC for AFC, they will shut OFC down and split AFC into an EAST and WEST and we would be exactly where we are now.... lumped in with the island sides and throw in Australia and perhaps the likes of Guam, Indonesia. Playing the same teams and not going anywhere. At least at the moment, when we play those teams, we go somewhere.

June 24, 2013 12:50
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Jeff Vader wrote:

See the way I look at this, if we ditched OFC for AFC, they will shut OFC down and split AFC into an EAST and WEST and we would be exactly where we are now.... lumped in with the island sides and throw in Australia and perhaps the likes of Guam, Indonesia. Playing the same teams and not going anywhere. At least at the moment, when we play those teams, we go somewhere.


i think it's safe to say we would get a pass to the 2nd round based on the above. 
June 24, 2013 12:55
TV
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perhaps even the 3rd round if we qualified for the world cup

June 24, 2013 12:56
Jeff Vader
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And you believe they will keep that same format and have Tahiti, Fiji, Solomons (where there is no cash) fly to Palestine, Afghanistan....

Not a shit show.

June 24, 2013 13:06
terminator_x
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Jeff - Round 1 of Asian qualifying (which is where most of the Island teams would be ranked) is only two games, a home and away tie against another team. The winners go through to Round 2, which is the same format. It's only in Round 3 that you get into pool play, which is where the travel starts to mount up. Most of the Oceania teams would be facing playing one away game, maybe two, if they were part of Asia. And Round 1 (and 2) could also be split into an East/West format to lessen the likely costs.

As pointed out above New Zealand would very likely get a bye to Round 2 at least.

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/tournament/competition/01/44/46/14/2014fwc_drawprocedures_asia_en.pdf


June 24, 2013 13:40
terminator_x
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FIFA makes a half-hearted defence of the status quo...

http://www.3news.co.nz/FIFA-defends-Tahitis-right-to-play-at-Confederations-Cup/tabid/415/articleID/302645/Default.aspx

For me the issue isn't so much about Oceania's representation (or not) at FIFA tournaments but Oceania's competitiveness at those tournaments, which leads to the question of how Oceania qualifies for tournaments.

Although each tournament is slightly different as a general rule I'd like to see Oceania qualifying blended with Asian qualifying in a way that doesn't punish the Island teams too much but offers much greater competitive and commercial opportunities to the Oceania champions, even if that means not always winning through to the main event. For instance, for WC qualifying either the Oceania champs join Asian qualifying in Round 4 (or maybe even the top two from Oceania join Round 3), or all the Oceania teams join Asian qualifying in Round 1, 2, or 3 depending on rankings (NZ would probably join Round 3).

There's heaps of options to make qualifying paths much more meaningful without either confederation giving up any political power, which seems to be the main stumbling block.

June 25, 2013 13:36
Bullion
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terminator_x wrote:

FIFA makes a half-hearted defence of the status quo...

http://www.3news.co.nz/FIFA-defends-Tahitis-right-to-play-at-Confederations-Cup/tabid/415/articleID/302645/Default.aspx

For me the issue isn't so much about Oceania's representation (or not) at FIFA tournaments but Oceania's competitiveness at those tournaments, which leads to the question of how Oceania qualifies for tournaments.

Although each tournament is slightly different as a general rule I'd like to see Oceania qualifying blended with Asian qualifying in a way that doesn't punish the Island teams too much but offers much greater competitive and commercial opportunities to the Oceania champions, even if that means not always winning through to the main event. For instance, for WC qualifying either the Oceania champs join Asian qualifying in Round 4 (or maybe even the top two from Oceania join Round 3), or all the Oceania teams join Asian qualifying in Round 1, 2, or 3 depending on rankings (NZ would probably join Round 3).

There's heaps of options to make qualifying paths much more meaningful without either confederation giving up any political power, which seems to be the main stumbling block.

That is looking at NZs potential move into Asia from Oceania's perspective - which might not be in the best interest of NZ to be a little selfish.


Valcke used an analogy:


"If we leave Oceania out of tournaments, then they have no chance at all - it would mean that you kill them," says Valcke. "It's like if you have a child and he is not talking as well as the others at school. To not disturb the good ones, we will put him in a room and we will wait for him to speak; he will never speak, he will never succeed. For a chance to improve or perform, you have to be in competition with the others."


Which is fair for Oceania as a whole but for NZ, using the same analogy, NZ Football is "in competition" with kids that can hardly speak and then when they get to the world event, they are blown away by the oratory skill of other nations.

June 25, 2013 14:29 · Edited June 25, 2013 14:29
terminator_x
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I'm not talking about NZ moving into Asia specifically, although that's an option.

I'm talking about Oceania qualifying being blended into Asia qualifying at some point that makes sense and provides meaningful competition before Oceania representatives get to the main event. Most Oceania countries would probably not notice much difference. But the best ones could get more games at a level that actually improves their football.

Going back to that analogy - you wouldn't expect a 5 year-old child to attempt NCEA. But that's effectively what just happened with Tahiti. Nice experience for them but are they really better off for it?

June 25, 2013 14:49
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I suppose it depends where you would expect Oceania to enter the Asian qualifying process for FIFA tournaments (and hopefully more than one team from Oceania). 

However if Oceania is still treated as a separate confederation I don't see how they won't be allowed direct entry into the confederations cup and could be argued for other FIFA tournaments (CWC and WCs). 

I don't see how Oceania and AFC could work if they are a separate confederation for AFC tournaments? If Oceania nations were to be eligible for AFC events (as well as qualification to FIFA events via AFC) then that basically means Oceania might as well cease to exist.

June 25, 2013 15:15
Tegal
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If only half spots are given to Oceania for all competitions, then they aren't really a confederation. More a half of a confederation, that blends with whichever confederation they enter qualifying into. 

So logically, you may as well just make it official and merge Oceania into Asia. 

June 25, 2013 15:36
terminator_x
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Bullion wrote:

I suppose it depends where you would expect Oceania to enter the Asian qualifying process for FIFA tournaments (and hopefully more than one team from Oceania). 

However if Oceania is still treated as a separate confederation I don't see how they won't be allowed direct entry into the confederations cup and could be argued for other FIFA tournaments (CWC and WCs). 

I don't see how Oceania and AFC could work if they are a separate confederation for AFC tournaments? If Oceania nations were to be eligible for AFC events (as well as qualification to FIFA events via AFC) then that basically means Oceania might as well cease to exist.



The Confederations Cup issue at a micro level was simply that the Oceania Nations qualifying tournament was a joke and led to a weak team getting through to be battered. Of course we now have exactly the same qualifying process for the Club World Cup so we haven't learnt a single thing from that (although I note that Oceania agreed that change prior to the Confeds Cup but have only just announced it. I wonder if Tahiti's performance might have caused a re-think?).

The Confederations Cup issue at a macro level is a tricky one because the idea is that each confederation has one rep at the tournament. But even then there are ways you could structure qualifying and/or the tournament itself to try and avoid the kind of 1-24 pasting Tahiti just got. At the CWC, for instance, the Oceania rep plays a play-off for the Quarter Final first and if they lose that's it.

For World Cup qualifying I can't see any reason why Oceania and Asian qualifying can't be merged in a way that gives all Oceania teams competition relative to their abilities, while also keeping costs in check, and also gives the Asian teams a direct run at a fifth qualifying spot with no inter-continental play-off required.

Edit: But crucially, retains the individual autonomy of each confederation.

June 25, 2013 16:27 · Edited June 25, 2013 16:29
MetalLegNZ
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almost 12 years

I think we have got the most we could have in some respects out of Australia leaving Oceania and have gained more public recognition and global exposure.

However, that progress looks like it may now be stalling and will continue to be so until we get more high quality games for our age groups and national team respectively.

If China for example played here in NZ, i'm confident you'd get 30,000 fans watching (mainly Chinese fans, but hey) which would help coffers for NZF plus increased sponsorship opportunities, particularly through Asia as opposed to Oceania.

We need to look at this.

June 25, 2013 16:33
terminator_x
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Still Believin'
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5.7K
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about 17 years

I agree. I don't think getting an easy ride to tournaments (whether it's us or another Oceania nation) and then getting pummelled is a good long-term strategy.

I think a lot may hinge on the upcoming inter-continental play-off. If we win, that's great, but it's going to be harder to bring people round to the idea of change. If we lose, I can see people being more prepared to look at it. If we lose badly, and thinking back to Tahitis recent performance, it might really speed things up.

Ideally, we win but we can still have a proper discussion about it.


June 25, 2013 16:48
TV
On probation
250
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4.2K
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over 13 years
terminator_x wrote:

I agree. I don't think getting an easy ride to tournaments (whether it's us or another Oceania nation) and then getting pummelled is a good long-term strategy.

I think a lot may hinge on the upcoming inter-continental play-off. If we win, that's great, but it's going to be harder to bring people round to the idea of change. If we lose, I can see people being more prepared to look at it. If we lose badly, and thinking back to Tahitis recent performance, it might really speed things up.

Ideally, we win but we can still have a proper discussion about it.



I doubt fifa or afc would let us but i want us in afc
June 25, 2013 17:10
Bullion
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Marquee
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5.3K
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over 16 years
terminator_x wrote:
Bullion wrote:

I suppose it depends where you would expect Oceania to enter the Asian qualifying process for FIFA tournaments (and hopefully more than one team from Oceania). 

However if Oceania is still treated as a separate confederation I don't see how they won't be allowed direct entry into the confederations cup and could be argued for other FIFA tournaments (CWC and WCs). 

I don't see how Oceania and AFC could work if they are a separate confederation for AFC tournaments? If Oceania nations were to be eligible for AFC events (as well as qualification to FIFA events via AFC) then that basically means Oceania might as well cease to exist.



The Confederations Cup issue at a micro level was simply that the Oceania Nations qualifying tournament was a joke and led to a weak team getting through to be battered. Of course we now have exactly the same qualifying process for the Club World Cup so we haven't learnt a single thing from that (although I note that Oceania agreed that change prior to the Confeds Cup but have only just announced it. I wonder if Tahiti's performance might have caused a re-think?).

The Confederations Cup issue at a macro level is a tricky one because the idea is that each confederation has one rep at the tournament. But even then there are ways you could structure qualifying and/or the tournament itself to try and avoid the kind of 1-24 pasting Tahiti just got. At the CWC, for instance, the Oceania rep plays a play-off for the Quarter Final first and if they lose that's it.

For World Cup qualifying I can't see any reason why Oceania and Asian qualifying can't be merged in a way that gives all Oceania teams competition relative to their abilities, while also keeping costs in check, and also gives the Asian teams a direct run at a fifth qualifying spot with no inter-continental play-off required.

Edit: But crucially, retains the individual autonomy of each confederation.

In that scenario I could possibly see, using the current WC qualification process, the third round of the OFC being integrated into the third round of the AFC. If an OFC team gets past the third round AFC they would get at least an extra 8 and up to 10 (if they get to the 5th spot playoff) games on top of the current qualification process. Those OFC nations that didn't get to the third round of qualification the scenario is no different than before. However that is only for the mens World Cup where currently the OFC don't get automatic qualification. If automatic qualification stands there is no point having integrated qualification for any of the womens or age group teams. 
Age group teams is probably where the biggest benefit would be in helping develop better footballers by playing more games against better opposition than is available in the OFC, and that will be for qualification for FIFA events (mens and womens u20, u17, Olympics, WC) plus AFC events (mens and womens u14, u16, u19, asian cup, ACL/AFC Cup) and smaller regional (most likely EAFF/ASEAN) tournaments. Plus the Phoenix could be eligible for the ACL.
If all qualification for all tournaments are integrated into the AFC then what's the point of the OFC?
June 25, 2013 17:34
reg22
Starting XI
1.8K
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4.1K
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about 17 years

what exactly is the attraction of asia? 

- i suspect that we believe that the organisation is not a joke?  well, let me assure you that it is. still, much better than oceania...

- the playing standard would be higher, definitely

- more frequent games - awesome

- would we get more money from tv revenue?  not sure about how this works

- anything else?

however,

- i suspect our clubs wouldn't be able to afford to compete in the asian champions league

- our national league will miss out on the almost guaranteed ofc champions league $$

- it would cost us more for the all whites to leg it around the place twice every four years for world cup and asian nations cup qualifying

- we would have little hope of qualification for the former, hence miss out on $$

- i assume that asian age grade qualifiers are not week long affairs like oceania?  more cost here

what other factors need to be considered?


June 25, 2013 17:59 · Edited June 25, 2013 18:00
aitkenmike
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Marquee
1.7K
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7.5K
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almost 17 years
reg22 wrote:

what exactly is the attraction of asia? 

- i suspect that we believe that the organisation is not a joke?  well, let me assure you that it is. still, much better than oceania...

- the playing standard would be higher, definitely

- more frequent games - awesome

- would we get more money from tv revenue?  not sure about how this works

- anything else?

however,

- i suspect our clubs wouldn't be able to afford to compete in the asian champions league

- our national league will miss out on the almost guaranteed ofc champions league $$

- it would cost us more for the all whites to leg it around the place twice every four years for world cup and asian nations cup qualifying

- we would have little hope of qualification for the former, hence miss out on $$

- i assume that asian age grade qualifiers are not week long affairs like oceania?  more cost here

what other factors need to be considered?



I agree with most of everything here except for this.  I really don't think it would be harder to finish ahead of Saudi Arabia/Bahrain/Iran/Jordan/China/Uzbekistan (the teams we would be competing with for 2nd or 3rd in the final group stage) over a 10 game period, than to beat a CONCACAF (or possibly CONMEBOL in the future) country over 2 legs without having played a real competitive game of football for 3 years.


June 25, 2013 18:14
austin10
First Team Squad
450
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1.1K
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over 11 years
aitkenmike wrote:
reg22 wrote:

what exactly is the attraction of asia? 

- i suspect that we believe that the organisation is not a joke?  well, let me assure you that it is. still, much better than oceania...

- the playing standard would be higher, definitely

- more frequent games - awesome

- would we get more money from tv revenue?  not sure about how this works

- anything else?

however,

- i suspect our clubs wouldn't be able to afford to compete in the asian champions league

- our national league will miss out on the almost guaranteed ofc champions league $$

- it would cost us more for the all whites to leg it around the place twice every four years for world cup and asian nations cup qualifying

- we would have little hope of qualification for the former, hence miss out on $$

- i assume that asian age grade qualifiers are not week long affairs like oceania?  more cost here

what other factors need to be considered?



I agree with most of everything here except for this.  I really don't think it would be harder to finish ahead of Saudi Arabia/Bahrain/Iran/Jordan/China/Uzbekistan (the teams we would be competing with for 2nd or 3rd in the final group stage) over a 10 game period, than to beat a CONCACAF (or possibly CONMEBOL in the future) country over 2 legs without having played a real competitive game of football for 3 years


This
I think that internationally the game in NZ has stalled. The public got all excited about the AW's at the last WC and from there they have been completely starved of any decent international games. If the AW's played in the final round of the Asian playoffs we would be getting regular meaningful games of a high level. We could beat the Irans/Jordans/UZbecks/Bahrains and playing Japan and Korea would really give our players some tough games. Plus imagine the crowds at an AW's Australia WC qualifying game.
The only downside would be paying for the travel....but you would hope bigger crowds and a cut of the TV money would help plus you would imagine they would pull in more sponsorship. The other downside would be having to pull kiwi players out of the Nix on a regular basis. Tough when you only have one pro team with 6 or more kiwi internationals.


June 25, 2013 19:14
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