National League review and future

MLS and A-League the only two premier national leagues on the planet without promotion-relegation far as I know.

was that the reason we shifted to a franchise base system. Club threw money around when they couldn't afford it?

Bankrupt the clubs and raid fund from the kids..... er more so than they do already.

And there we have it. Things have changed.

Correct. But there are always guys around with more dosh than sense willing to step up - e.g. Terry S, Phil K - and now, with the very real inducement of the WCC and that $600,000 minimum to get them out of the closet, I'd bet a few NR and CL club chairmen would be interested in having another go.

Those sort of people would throw a much bigger tantrum at NZ Football taking a sizeable chunk of winnings from any WCC appearance which would mean NZ Football would have to put more money into the league to run it from a non-existant budget.

Not shooting the idea down, just thinking of the risks.

In any other country NZF wouldn't get a cent of a club's prize money. They should be there just to administer the game, not profit from it.

Or the rest of the clubs in the league!! Do Phoenix and Wanderers SC get a share of it this season as well? 

Nothing wrong with NZF profiting from the game in NZ how else do they get revenue? But it should be at any clubs expense

Deep breaths.

There needs to be some pragmatism as well. 

There is no point in Auckland City pulling in a million dollars a year and having no one else to play against.  A one team league would result in no spot for anyone at the Oceania table let alone the CWC one.

Well, we've got a league with a massive prize carrot. With promo/relegation  I could see Rapa, East Coast Bays, Miramar, Olympic chairmen eager to replace a few of the present incumbents and give ACFC & Waitak a run for the money.

Plus Glenfield of course.

The problem is that in other countries, there are TV deals which fund the leagues which allow the governing body to just administer it.. NZ does not have this so .....

Maybe take a longer breath next time try 5 mins maybe!

The comment was in response to the statement about NZF taking money from CWC and that It wouldnt happen in any other country and neither  would the other clubs get a share occur anywhere else which was the point I was making, But as usual you get all anti ACFC  and think that every comment is about them.

It doesnt matter who wins O-League I dont believe the other clubs should get any of the prizemoney.

But you didnt answer question about Phoenix and Wanderers getting a share (if infact that actually do) Surely you cant believe that they are entitled to any!!!

Well this is on topic....

This.  The only realistic TV option is beholden to Rugby and any coverage of domestic football has to be paid by the national body.

The only revenue NZ football have is prize-money, an occassional gate and subs on players.  If we want a higher profile league and to buy TV coverage on air then people need to be prepared to see a massive spike in Fees to pay for it unless Sky suddenly have a change of management/heart.

So the league will fold will it if Auckland City or Team Wellington fail to win O-League next year?

Doubt it

Will Phoenix be getting a cheque for WSW after xmas.....

I think Phil would be keen for a crack for sure. ECB tends to be a bit more junior focused and developing players through their grades so not sure they would.

I guess I look at the old Mt Wellington and Bob Douglas was saying the best thing they did was pull out of Northern League cause it allowed them to get their finances in order.

And that was a club that was undoubtedly once the Powerhouse of NZ Football

On topic thanks.

Merits of franchise v clubs. Go!

Entirely spurious.  The budgets of the clubs alone, let alone the league as a whole are vastly different.  The TV coverage, the market, the viability of the league all completely different.

This discussion really needs to be Phoenix excluded but your every point comes back to something A-League.  This is about how an NZ National league functions with the assumption that the Phoenix continue to operate as 'the next level'.

can we banstick Vayne already

well, this thread turned out as expected. 

Sadly, because it can be quite an interesting topic to discuss. Think we managed to actually have a discussion about it once (out of about 100 attempts) can't remember the thread though, but it was bloody good. 

Ideally*, these are the pros

Franchise

- No tribalism

- No agendas

- Opportunity for top players in region to represent said region

- Access to best facilities in the region

- Potentially more sponsorship opportunities

Club

- More history

- More tradition

- Greater chance at long term development from juniors right through to first team football

- Pyramid system

- Greater connection with supporters/club members

*Obviously this isn't black and white.

I actually think a franchise system has a greater potential of being better supported if done correctly. I'd feel the need to support a team of wellington based players that represents the region, I'm less inclined to get out and support Miramar. 

Gone are the days where 1000s would turn out to watch a club because there is nothing better to do. Players and even supporters also have less of a connection with their local club as they used to. 

A franchise system where the best players from the region (eg players from all clubs in wellington) with perhaps gaps being filled with players from outside the region has a good chance at doing well. 

For me, a club based system is limited in a lot of ways, and I think people look back on it fondly as 'the good old days' without looking at the problems such a system has. Particularly financially. Clubs have crippled themselves chasing and playing national league football. At the very least they would tend to use their money even more inefficiently than they do now - over charging juniors to fund their senior teams. 

Somebody said that people would come out and personally fund a club based system, but that is hardly a very stable or sustainable model. It is also based more on hope than on reality. 

I find the crowds one interesting. For example, Miramar would get less to a CL game than TW would for an ASBP. If say Wests were the sole Wellington team in a club-based national league, would more people go to that, than a TW game. I doubt it. Club tribalism seems to be a thing of the past.

Echo!

Been a while since you played in Wainui?  

Yeah I know off topic

3 hicks and their dog doesn't count.

Thats a good start Buffon.

I think one of the reasons I am not in favour of the club system (and I think its the only reason) is the financial side of it. They start off all huff and puff and throw money at it and then find that they get nothing. After 2 years an internal review finds that they have overpaid for under talented players for nothing, so they throw more cash at it, but raid the juniors fund meaning the development and the money the kids throw at their game is wasted paying some talentless hack and the club eventually gets further into debt. The volunteers then get tired of it as the negativity seeps in and its left to some poor guy to do the lot who just gets pissed off and walks away. You then have a club with in debt, a junior program with nothing and no volunteers.

Or something to that effect.......

There is a counter to that though 2B when you look at Big Cup crowds.  SOme of those evening games at Wkey in recent years have dragged numbers that TeeDubs and the WeeNix would love.

Part club parochialism and part you talking up the Cup like a mad person.

Key point right there "Yeah I can fund you no worries". 3 years later........
Ask Nathan Tinkler how thats working out. You need more than 1 sugar daddy and they usually last no more than 3 years.

So if we talk the ASBP up big time will we get an increase in crowds or is there just not the same pull there as the Chat Cup?

Could be ways around it. Budget cap could be implemented. Before the winter season starts, clubs could indicate whether they'd be interested in qualifying for the National League. If they are, they pay an entry fee. The team that does qualify get to use all of those clubs fees to cover the entry fee of the national league (and hence cover flights etc).

Reckon News is overplaying those numbers at CC games. They would be in the few hundreds. Would they come out each week, or just for the odd big game (ala CC games)?

Can we also have a bit of reality about funding this please.

A lot (most?) of the money currently floating around at both ASBP and regional level comes from pokies.

Yes, I know I sound like a broken record but that's because it is such an obvious and significant issue.

We cannot design a national league that relies so heavily on pokie money for its sustainability. To do so assumes that:

a. The sum total of pokie money will not decline, and

b. Elite football's share of that money will remain the same and it's entitlement will never be questioned

Those are two pretty big assumptions.

You guys did that thing for the Quarter final this year. How was that in terms of attendance for a 1 off considering marketing/promotion?

CC is a totally different beast, Winner Take all, One offs, Giant Killers etc

Interesting quetsion because we do talk it up but the crowds don't come.  A mix of summer and other options and that a big cup game at 18:00 at Wakefield when you've already played on a Saturday feels like a continuance of the day rather than going out to a seperate event. 

Also the advantage of two local clubs, one at least of whom is probably playing outside their club rooms where their social teams are there.

I think there is 'one off' element as well because those same clubs often play in front of 30 girlfriends and parents in a Central league game.

Another bloody good point.

Is there any NZ national league (Other than Rugby) that isnt based around Pokies?

Pretty much what I was typing up!

I want to support my club (hopefully also on a good Chatham cup run) and then also a team representing the region. 

Which leads me to ask the question why not the federation model like the women? Put some restrictions in place to only allow picking of players that played/registered for clubs in the federation? Don't really know enough about the pros/cons or if it works.