The Travelling Circus - playing home games around NZ

Starting XI
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almost 17 years

Jeff Vader wrote:

Kiwi Hatter wrote:

Jeff Vader wrote:

I have to stand up for Doloras on this 

There are marketing companies out there that created all sorts of shark campaigns - the Jerry Seinfeld/Vista adverts come immediately to mind as being horrendous and very expensive. That got past creative and went to market. Walmart had a 'Fat Girl Costumes' thing on their website and again, that got past marketing and out in to the market. #susanalbumparty is another. There are all sorts of failed campaigns out there that have flopped and have cost a crap load. Expensive marketing campaigns do not equal results but at what point do you keep throwing money at something until you realise it wont work?

There are also plenty of succesful marketing campaigns, i.e. TRUMP, Newcastle Brown Ale Super Bowl, Toyota, most of Coca-Cola's campaigns, Nike,  etc.

Marketing costs money and they have tried that and its not worked. They are not bottomless pits of money because previous attempts have given enough of a fair indication that it does not work.

So the marketing they tried didn't work? Your solution is to stop all marketing because it costs money & what they tried didn't work? 

Your position of you keep going until you get results is fine in theory but its not always practical.

When you hear Rob Morrison telling us that we MUST get 10,000 to home games to break even, We MUST increase our membership, we MUST get a better deal from SKY TV, we MUST appeal to the whole of NZ, you would expect the club (that is backed by a consortium of multi-millionaires) to be doing everything in their power to achieve these 'Metrics', including getting an effective & prolonged marketing campaign. I have not seen a prolonged marketing campaign for the Phoenix!

 You may not have an idea about good marketing and I know I do not either (you could always ask Doloras for her insights into effective marketing?) but just because its not to our tastes, does not mean its bad. ( it's just not effective!) It just means sometimes you have a product you cannot sell. I give you Vegemites iSnack 2.0, New Coke, & Wellington Phoenix ;) , as examples.

There are half a million people within one hours drive of Wellington, my opinion is that the club haven't conducted a sufficiently adequate, prolonged marketing campaign to those people. The club do half arsed promo's which are sometimes quite good, but they don't appear to follow them up, or they play two games out of wellington, or they play absolutely s**t, so any momentum is lost.

We need an additional 2500- 3000 at each game through the turnstiles at Westpac Stadium to get our average up to 10000, we aren't that far off. 

Well thats it then. You've solved it. Get Dome et al on here to read this cause Kiwi Hatter has figured out.

You have so much confirmation bias on this its not funny

My beliefs of ineffectual marketing are confirmed by the FACT that we have to have a traveling circus & we don't have the required number of members, 

My beliefs of ineffectual marketing are confirmed by the FACT that we have NOT HAD A PROLONGED & EFFECTIVE MARKETING PLAN!!!!!!!! 

Of course I have a bias to having games in Wellington, & yes I will always want games to be in wellington, & if WELNIX decide to take the club to Auckland that's their perogative to do so. I am voicing my opinion which opposes it because I support the WELLINGTON Phoenix, not the NZ Phoenix, the clue is in the name!

Whats your f**king solution, Mr Stevens? 

LG
Legend
5.7K
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23K
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almost 17 years

Up until Kosta and Finkler, you are 100% correct. Ernie had to make do with what he got given. And you are right, they could still improve things by some more investment.

Nice sarcastic remark JV, that was really constructive too. So if Hatter doesn't agree with you he is wrong? 

Appiah without the pace
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19K
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almost 17 years

Steady on children.

Starting XI
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2.6K
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almost 17 years

Lonegunmen wrote:

Up until Kosta and Finkler, you are 100% correct. Ernie had to make do with what he got given. And you are right, they could still improve things by some more investment.

Nice sarcastic remark JV, that was really constructive too. So if Hatter doesn't agree with you he is wrong? 

I usually am, i was married for 22 years! 

Starting XI
480
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2.6K
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almost 17 years

2ndBest wrote:

Steady on children.

Cock
2.7K
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16K
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almost 15 years

Kiwi Hatter wrote:

Jeff Vader wrote:

Kiwi Hatter wrote:

Jeff Vader wrote:

I have to stand up for Doloras on this 

There are marketing companies out there that created all sorts of shark campaigns - the Jerry Seinfeld/Vista adverts come immediately to mind as being horrendous and very expensive. That got past creative and went to market. Walmart had a 'Fat Girl Costumes' thing on their website and again, that got past marketing and out in to the market. #susanalbumparty is another. There are all sorts of failed campaigns out there that have flopped and have cost a crap load. Expensive marketing campaigns do not equal results but at what point do you keep throwing money at something until you realise it wont work?

There are also plenty of succesful marketing campaigns, i.e. TRUMP, Newcastle Brown Ale Super Bowl, Toyota, most of Coca-Cola's campaigns, Nike,  etc.

Marketing costs money and they have tried that and its not worked. They are not bottomless pits of money because previous attempts have given enough of a fair indication that it does not work.

So the marketing they tried didn't work? Your solution is to stop all marketing because it costs money & what they tried didn't work? 

Your position of you keep going until you get results is fine in theory but its not always practical.

When you hear Rob Morrison telling us that we MUST get 10,000 to home games to break even, We MUST increase our membership, we MUST get a better deal from SKY TV, we MUST appeal to the whole of NZ, you would expect the club (that is backed by a consortium of multi-millionaires) to be doing everything in their power to achieve these 'Metrics', including getting an effective & prolonged marketing campaign. I have not seen a prolonged marketing campaign for the Phoenix!

 You may not have an idea about good marketing and I know I do not either (you could always ask Doloras for her insights into effective marketing?) but just because its not to our tastes, does not mean its bad. ( it's just not effective!) It just means sometimes you have a product you cannot sell. I give you Vegemites iSnack 2.0, New Coke, & Wellington Phoenix ;) , as examples.

There are half a million people within one hours drive of Wellington, my opinion is that the club haven't conducted a sufficiently adequate, prolonged marketing campaign to those people. The club do half arsed promo's which are sometimes quite good, but they don't appear to follow them up, or they play two games out of wellington, or they play absolutely s**t, so any momentum is lost.

We need an additional 2500- 3000 at each game through the turnstiles at Westpac Stadium to get our average up to 10000, we aren't that far off. 

Well thats it then. You've solved it. Get Dome et al on here to read this cause Kiwi Hatter has figured out.

You have so much confirmation bias on this its not funny

My belief of ineffectual marketing are confirmed by the FACT that we have to have a traveling circus & we don't have the required number of members, 

My belief of ineffectual marketing are confirmed by the FACT that we have NOT HAD A PROLONGED & EFFECTIVE MARKETING PLAN!!!!!!!! 

Of course I have a bias to having games in Wellington, & yes I will always want games to be in wellington, & if WELNIX decide to take the club to Auckland that's their perogative to do so. I am voicing my opinion which opposes it because I support the WELLINGTON Phoenix, not the NZ Phoenix, the clue is in the name!

Whats your f**king solution, Mr Stevens? 

I don't have one, but then I'm not the one banging on about how fudgeed it is now am I....

The cold hard truth of NZ and supporting anything is if it wins or looks like winning, everyone is onboard. If its horseshark and about to die in a ditch, they wont touch it. That is the FACT you are looking for my friend. I bet you dollars to donuts if the Auckland Blues start winning again, Eden Park will fill bloody quick. Its interesting to see all the Hurricanes fans that have appeared after two good years. Wonder how those Chiefs fans are going now they have stopped winning. 

In side issue to this, I do feel for the Hamilton game numbers. When you want to watch the Phoenix and the Parker fight, people are going to do both in the vicinity of a TV. The only way to have had a bigger crowd was to have the game on a different day on a Sunday, or bring the KO forward to say 3pm to get away from the TV clash. As Piney said himself, the 1st thing he did was bail to a pub to watch it. It was unfortunate that the game was basically on a hiding to nothing.

Opinion Privileges revoked
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over 14 years

Well, Napier Phoenix just brought up the other canard - that "if only" Welnix would splash the cash on coach and players we'd start winning big. That's another argument which is IMHO as unsupported as "market it and they would come". Firstly because we are lucky to have owners who are taking a risk-averse, let's-not-go-broke approach to funding. Secondly because we are neither the Bling nor Citeh and the FFA are not going to allow us to rort the salary cap. Thirdly, as I keep mentioning, Wellington (despite the boosterism of many of its citizens) is not the sun-drenched beach-laden semi-retirement option for Euro footballers that the big Aussie cities are.

The facts are that our two best seasons were those when we got extremely lucky with a star player - Paul Ifill 09/10 and Nathan Burns 14/15. In neither case was that the result of offering big bucks to a sure thing. It was due to taking a chance on someone who had an inconsistent record and believing in them. The fact is that I think we underestimate the factor of luck in recruitment.

WeeNix
440
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800
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almost 9 years

I think it will be easier to assess the state and effectiveness of our marketing over the next couple of months. After the game in Auckland, we've got away trips in Newcastle and Perth, and four home games in January, of which the toughest fixture is the re-scheduled Victory game. 

Due to a mix of good results (hopefully) and a string of home home games upcoming, the off-the-field marketing SHOULD be able to pick up some momentum, no excuses. I would hope we hit 10k at least once in January. 

On another note, I see plenty of mention of a second New Zealand team, if this were to happen, how would this affect the Phoenix financially since we've gone down the travelling circus route to make up for home crowd figures that aren't financially sustainable for the club? 

Cock
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16K
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almost 15 years

Lonegunmen wrote:

Up until Kosta and Finkler, you are 100% correct. Ernie had to make do with what he got given. And you are right, they could still improve things by some more investment.

Nice sarcastic remark JV, that was really constructive too. So if Hatter doesn't agree with you he is wrong? 

That is hilarious coming from you.

Its not about agreeing with me at all. Kiwi Hatter speaks as if the club has never tried or never tried effectively (whatever). The fact many marketing managers have come and gone could suggest the opposite that many have tried, failed and decided to move on (or get moved on). As I suggested, some times you have a product that you cannot sell. Is the Phoenix a product that you cannot sell? I can't say that for sure but history says across the Kingz, Knights and Phoenix that the public are not buying what is being sold to them so you draw your own conclusions.

I don't speak from some insanctum of knowingness that says 'Oh they 100% did this' but to suggest they have not tried or have given up speaks like his 100% does know. 

As I alluded to, winning fixes quite a lot of things - Warriors crowds, Breakers crowds (no longer sell out when they don't sit up the table) Thats all the marketing you need and someone else said it best 'stick the money on the field and let it sell itself.'

Cock
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almost 15 years

Doloras wrote:

Well, Napier Phoenix just brought up the other canard - that "if only" Welnix would splash the cash on coach and players we'd start winning big. That's another argument which is IMHO as unsupported as "market it and they would come". Firstly because we are lucky to have owners who are taking a risk-averse, let's-not-go-broke approach to funding. Secondly because we are neither the Bling nor Citeh and the FFA are not going to allow us to rort the salary cap. Thirdly, as I keep mentioning, Wellington (despite the boosterism of many of its citizens) is not the sun-drenched beach-laden semi-retirement option for Euro footballers that the big Aussie cities are.

The facts are that our two best seasons were those when we got extremely lucky with a star player - Paul Ifill 09/10 and Nathan Burns 14/15. In neither case was that the result of offering big bucks to a sure thing. It was due to taking a chance on someone who had an inconsistent record and believing in them. The fact is that I think we underestimate the factor of luck in recruitment.

You are right (which is in contrast to what I mentioned in my last post) but I don't think anyone is advocating going out for big overseas names. We got some decent names in this season but in the wrong positions (which we can debate). How would be if we had a Riera instead of Finkler. One could argue a better balanced side.
Appiah without the pace
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19K
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almost 17 years

Seem if you take the Hurricanes are a comparative product, they don't seem to do much difference either. Billboards, newspaper, and bus shelters.

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Doloras wrote:

Well, Napier Phoenix just brought up the other canard - that "if only" Welnix would splash the cash on coach and players we'd start winning big. That's another argument which is IMHO as unsupported as "market it and they would come". Firstly because we are lucky to have owners who are taking a risk-averse, let's-not-go-broke approach to funding. Secondly because we are neither the Bling nor Citeh and the FFA are not going to allow us to rort the salary cap. Thirdly, as I keep mentioning, Wellington (despite the boosterism of many of its citizens) is not the sun-drenched beach-laden semi-retirement option for Euro footballers that the big Aussie cities are.

The facts are that our two best seasons were those when we got extremely lucky with a star player - Paul Ifill 09/10 and Nathan Burns 14/15. In neither case was that the result of offering big bucks to a sure thing. It was due to taking a chance on someone who had an inconsistent record and believing in them. The fact is that I think we underestimate the factor of luck in recruitment.

100% this Doloras

I actually don't belive there is a magic bullet that will suddenly add 2000 or 3000 to the average Nix home crowd. I think people are over valueing the possible impact of marketing. As Domey said a couple of years ago...they have tried all sorts of marketing plans but they have found that the only real thing that works is if the team are on a good run of form and it generates a media/public buzz.

The reality is that the crowds we get actually might indicate the actual level of interest. Living overseas as I do, I get a more disconnected view of the Nix. I get my info from the Net via NZ media. I have to admit that the vibe I get is mostly negative. How do you expect to get people to pay to watch a team that is sitting bottom of the table and the coach had just resigned?

IMO Welnix are doing an OK job. Not their fault that Sarpong??? was a dud...he could have been another Ifill. The current team looks great on paper. We have 3 players that have an excellent A-League CV's in Costa, Weemac and Finkler. We have a good midfielder with Dutch Div 1 experiance and a Serie A defender. Plus there are plenty of kiwi internationals in the side. The club is well managed and well run. The problem is that, as Ernie pointed out, running a NZ franchise A-League club is very very difficult, for multiple reasons.

I wouldn't fret about crowd numbers. As a fan it is out of your control. Its Welnix's problem.Actually crowd revenue is only a small part of the clubs annual income source....its all about perception. If we played in a 8000 seater that looked 90% full on TV then there would probably be less heat in this debate.

Its actually a world wide problem. In Europe football crowd numbers have been falling for years(except Germany and England) A few weeks ago I was in Italy and there was lots of reports about crowd numbers. That weekend there were at least 4 games with crowds around 6000...... in Div1 Italy. A recent  weekend in France only one game got over 20,000 fan, across the whole of Div1. The Nix do OK all things considered

Starting XI
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almost 17 years

My apologies for being a passionate WELLINGTON Phoenix supporter, who believes that more could be done in the clubs HOME city. 

How dare I express an opinion on the WELLINGTON Phoenix Traveling Circus, in a thread called "The Travelling (sic) Circus playing games around NZ" on a Forum for "Supporters of WELLINGTON Phoenix FC"

From now on I shall keep my opinion on this matter off the forum.

(Have fun at the game on Saturday, get there early to avoid the queues)

Marquee
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over 12 years

For me a big factor is the lack of engagement with the local footballing community. There seems to be a lot of engagement with kids who play football but practically none with adults who do. There are heaps of guys in their 20s and 30s in Wellington who play football, play FIFA, have at least a passing interest in English and European football, but who barely ever or never go to a Nix game? Why is that? I think there's a lot of factors but one of them seems to be that club has never really made a push to get those guys on board. Obviously there's Eurosnobbery involved but I think the club could even address that in marketing if it was smart. So much of the marketing seems directed at families and kids too, which plays into the "Nix aren't cool" Eurosnob attitude too. If I was doing the marketing I'd try to drive home the party atmosphere of the zone and the games and directly target registered footballers - discounts for season tickets, free Phoenix gear to clubs to give away to players, things like that. It might not work but it is worth a shot. Some of this may have been done before though, I will admit that I don't know what specifically the club has tried to do too engage this demographic. I just know they haven't managed to do so.

I like the idea of turning Eurosnobbery on its head - the live experience of supporting your local club at a home game is football fandom at its purist - not following a megaclub on the other side of the planet which you have no connection at all to.*

*Not a dig at people on here who support European clubs, but at the attitude of a lot of guys who claim to be fans of big clubs when it suits them and act all snobby about the A League without even giving it a chance.

Starting XI
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about 10 years

On the topic of money spent surely Ernie wasn't a cheap coach?

Sometimes you can put all the superstars together and it just doesnt work.

Cock
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almost 15 years

Kiwi Hatter wrote:

My apologies for being a passionate WELLINGTON Phoenix supporter, who believes that more could be done in the clubs HOME city. 

How dare I express an opinion on the WELLINGTON Phoenix Traveling Circus, in a thread called "The Travelling (sic) Circus playing games around NZ" on a Forum for "Supporters of WELLINGTON Phoenix FC"

From now on I shall keep my opinion on this matter off the forum.

(Have fun at the game on Saturday, get there early to avoid the queues)

and my response was called childish..... thats a toy toss to losing an argument as good as I have ever seen

Again, if you can see the things the others can't why are you not putting your hand in to help the club you are so passionate about? If you feel more can be done, provide solutions since it seems so obvious to you that others cannot see. You are a passionate man and you seem to see the most unmarketed product in all of Wellington that every other marketing person has failed at however all you are doing is saying the club is doing it wrong. Thats not hard to do man or hardly a defendable position without providing ideas of how they could do it better. Its easy to say there is a catchment area of half a million. How do they get them through the gates since its so easy?

LG
Legend
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23K
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almost 17 years

We could always ask the previous  employees of the knights and the kings. Or even the guys who did the Beckham match up north

Marquee
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over 13 years

Bananas wrote:

On the topic of money spent surely Ernie wasn't a cheap coach?

Sometimes you can put all the superstars together and it just doesnt work.

The squad as a whole is unlikely to be cheap, we're using every loophole in the salary cap except for the guest marquee. We're not ever going to be able to outspend the big teams, and so investing in youth and academies is the correct path to win.

Life and death
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about 17 years

austin10 wrote:

Its actually a world wide problem. In Europe football crowd numbers have been falling for years(except Germany and England) A few weeks ago I was in Italy and there was lots of reports about crowd numbers. That weekend there were at least 4 games with crowds around 6000...... in Div1 Italy. A recent  weekend in France only one game got over 20,000 fan, across the whole of Div1. The Nix do OK all things considered

What is the reason for that then? wouldn't be related to the standard of play now would it?
Starting XI
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about 17 years

austin10 wrote:

Its actually a world wide problem. In Europe football crowd numbers have been falling for years(except Germany and England) A few weeks ago I was in Italy and there was lots of reports about crowd numbers. That weekend there were at least 4 games with crowds around 6000...... in Div1 Italy. A recent  weekend in France only one game got over 20,000 fan, across the whole of Div1. The Nix do OK all things considered

What is the reason for that then? wouldn't be related to the standard of play now would it?

No, not necessarily. In Germany's case, it is as much about fan experience - fantastic new stadiums (2006 WC helped) + dedicated standing areas that generate awesome atmosphere.  England, more about TV money buying top names and a market big enough to pay the bucks to see them with better quality & then more money and so and so on in a (arguably) virtuous circle.
Starting XI
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Oh, Probably helps that Germany has been slightly successful recently at footie :)

Life and death
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about 17 years

They have tried all of these marketing ploys haven't they? and they haven't worked. The one they haven't employed yet is the 'winning team' concept. Its all very well to bang on about running the club in a fiscally prudent way etc but the bottom line is they are struggling to make money and attract crowds and its the old adage of "if nothing changes, nothing changes". I grateful that Welnix saved the club from destruction but get sick of them bitching and moaning about crowds when they haven't tried the obvious and spent some serious money on quality.

If they want to run the club in the current manner, just do it and stop haranguing the core fan base about not turning up and prostituting the club around the country to make a quid. If you want to be serious about owning a club then you've actually got to spend money on things that will make people turn up to watch, buy your merchandise etc. If you don't want to do that, fudge off, sell the club and let someone else have a crack. 

Marquee
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over 13 years

They have tried all of these marketing ploys haven't they? and they haven't worked. The one they haven't employed yet is the 'winning team' concept. Its all very well to bang on about running the club in a fiscally prudent way etc but the bottom line is they are struggling to make money and attract crowds and its the old adage of "if nothing changes, nothing changes". I grateful that Welnix saved the club from destruction but get sick of them bitching and moaning about crowds when they haven't tried the obvious and spent some serious money on quality.

If they want to run the club in the current manner, just do it and stop haranguing the core fan base about not turning up and prostituting the club around the country to make a quid. If you want to be serious about owning a club then you've actually got to spend money on things that will make people turn up to watch, buy your merchandise etc. If you don't want to do that, fudge off, sell the club and let someone else have a crack. 

2014-15 when it looked like a very real possibility that we'd win it our average was 8.5k, the year before that when we finished 9th it was 8.2k, last year it was 8k.

I agree that winning will increase crowds, but it needs to be a team that's competitive over multiple seasons and that can only happen through sustainable development. You say if nothing happens, nothing happens, but we haven't yet seen the results of our investments in the academy system, it's only three years old.

First Team Squad
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about 12 years

Doloras wrote:

The facts are that our two best seasons were those when we got extremely lucky with a star player - Paul Ifill 09/10 and Nathan Burns 14/15. In neither case was that the result of offering big bucks to a sure thing. It was due to taking a chance on someone who had an inconsistent record and believing in them.

Strongly disagree. Both players were IMO 'dream' players of the two coach's who signed them, and those coach's could have  conceptualized such players with their qualities prior to signing for us. Merrick apparently wanted Burns at Victory. Both player and coach were benefited from associating with each other, taking a lot more than luck, and good timing.
First Team Squad
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about 12 years

For me a big factor is the lack of engagement with the local footballing community.

Bit of a curly one. Why do people in New Zealand play football? It's actually not that easy to answer.

So if it's difficult to understand what drives them, it would, I guess make it problematic to devise a clear marketing campaign to target this group.

Marquee
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yellowsite wrote:

For me a big factor is the lack of engagement with the local footballing community.

Bit of a curly one. Why do people in New Zealand play football? It's actually not that easy to answer.

So if it's difficult to understand what drives them, it would, I guess make it problematic to devise a clear marketing campaign to target this group.

they're too small for rugby.
Starting XI
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almost 17 years

Jeff Vader wrote:

Kiwi Hatter wrote:

My apologies for being a passionate WELLINGTON Phoenix supporter, who believes that more could be done in the clubs HOME city. 

How dare I express an opinion on the WELLINGTON Phoenix Traveling Circus, in a thread called "The Travelling (sic) Circus playing games around NZ" on a Forum for "Supporters of WELLINGTON Phoenix FC"

From now on I shall keep my opinion on this matter off the forum.

(Have fun at the game on Saturday, get there early to avoid the queues)

and my response was called childish..... thats a toy toss to losing an argument as good as I have ever seen

Again, if you can see the things the others can't why are you not putting your hand in to help the club you are so passionate about? If you feel more can be done, provide solutions since it seems so obvious to you that others cannot see. You are a passionate man and you seem to see the most unmarketed product in all of Wellington that every other marketing person has failed at however all you are doing is saying the club is doing it wrong. Thats not hard to do man or hardly a defendable position without providing ideas of how they could do it better. Its easy to say there is a catchment area of half a million. How do they get them through the gates since its so easy?

Not a toy toss, Jeff. Just a decision I made to not carry on the discussion. Carry on without me. 

Big Hugs to you & Doloras. XX

Starting XI
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almost 17 years

2ndBest wrote:

Kiwi Hatter wrote:

Snip:

Sky aren't going to pay more for the rights unless more people watch us. For the future of the club, we can't just focus on Wellington. That's a reality. Pure and simple. 

Just about all clubs lose money in the A-league, so clearly it's not the club business model that's the problem. It's the business model of the league. Perhaps this will improve with the new TV deal. 

Fans in Auckland do turn up. More so than ones in Wellington. and yes that is the nature of one off games and having a bigger population.

The club has never said that current wellington fans are the problem. If we were getting 12K every week, this wouldn't be an issue. But for some reason, people who play and watch football, don't comes to games. That's the problem. I'm unconvinced that these people don't know the games are on. They just choose not to go. Maybe its EPL snobbery, maybe it's the stadium, maybe it's the cost, maybe it's the team. But marketing isn't a magic bullet. 

Or maybe it's the most obvious one: Can't be arsed

Being on Sky must be a big driver towards non attendance esp. if we are playing poorly and it's raining, the exact conditions Hamilton had.  3-0 win will bring the Jaffas plus the Waibop tragics out on Saturday.

Starting XI
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almost 17 years

Kyle1502 wrote:

Ryan wrote:

I don't think the crowds are bad at all, they are definitely favourable compared to the Lions and not far off the Hurricanes (who play in the top competition in the world, in the national sport and play less than half the games that the Phoenix play at home) and also compared to other leagues like the SPL and Serie A.

The business plan has to work at just under 10k in bad seasons and over 10k in good seasons, with a period of bad - neutral seasons in rebuilding phases between title tilts. But the TV audience and membership numbers definitely have to go up, which is where the traveling circus comes in.

This year in their 6 home games, the Canes had 22k, 20k, 16k, 14k, 14k and 10k crowds. Not sure you can say Nix crowds are not far off that

Chalk and cheese to compare these two. Rugby in NZ is all rep unlike Europe where it's actual clubs.  

If the Nix and Canes were on the same playing field, both teams would look very different, and so would their attendances, finances etc.  I also think the Aviva Premiership might have more interest in it money and viewing wise, the the Super Whatever.

Marquee
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over 13 years

Marto wrote:

2ndBest wrote:

Kiwi Hatter wrote:

Snip:

Sky aren't going to pay more for the rights unless more people watch us. For the future of the club, we can't just focus on Wellington. That's a reality. Pure and simple. 

Just about all clubs lose money in the A-league, so clearly it's not the club business model that's the problem. It's the business model of the league. Perhaps this will improve with the new TV deal. 

Fans in Auckland do turn up. More so than ones in Wellington. and yes that is the nature of one off games and having a bigger population.

The club has never said that current wellington fans are the problem. If we were getting 12K every week, this wouldn't be an issue. But for some reason, people who play and watch football, don't comes to games. That's the problem. I'm unconvinced that these people don't know the games are on. They just choose not to go. Maybe its EPL snobbery, maybe it's the stadium, maybe it's the cost, maybe it's the team. But marketing isn't a magic bullet. 

Or maybe it's the most obvious one: Can't be arsed

Being on Sky must be a big driver towards non attendance esp. if we are playing poorly and it's raining, the exact conditions Hamilton had.  3-0 win will bring the Jaffas plus the Waibop tragics out on Saturday.

Sky numbers are part of the problem though, our ratings aren't that great either IIRC. The Phoenix have said that independent surveys show that they are the second most supported team in the country after the Warriors, but that support seems very fickle and casual.

Marquee
7.2K
·
9.4K
·
over 13 years

Marto wrote:

Kyle1502 wrote:

Ryan wrote:

I don't think the crowds are bad at all, they are definitely favourable compared to the Lions and not far off the Hurricanes (who play in the top competition in the world, in the national sport and play less than half the games that the Phoenix play at home) and also compared to other leagues like the SPL and Serie A.

The business plan has to work at just under 10k in bad seasons and over 10k in good seasons, with a period of bad - neutral seasons in rebuilding phases between title tilts. But the TV audience and membership numbers definitely have to go up, which is where the traveling circus comes in.

This year in their 6 home games, the Canes had 22k, 20k, 16k, 14k, 14k and 10k crowds. Not sure you can say Nix crowds are not far off that

Chalk and cheese to compare these two. Rugby in NZ is all rep unlike Europe where it's actual clubs.  

If the Nix and Canes were on the same playing field, both teams would look very different, and so would their attendances, finances etc.  I also think the Aviva Premiership might have more interest in it money and viewing wise, the the Super Whatever.

Those numbers actually validate the point that the best way to increase crowds is to have a sustained run of results, when the Hurricanes were loosing Crowds were at around 10k, since they've been more competitive they've been increasing steadily every year.

When the Hurricanes were crap (and they've never been as crap as the Phoenix) they were averaging 10k, the Phoenix were averaging 8k despite being worse in the ladder, not being in the premier competition in the world, and playing more games.

First Team Squad
450
·
1.1K
·
over 11 years

Turfmoore wrote:

austin10 wrote:

Its actually a world wide problem. In Europe football crowd numbers have been falling for years(except Germany and England) A few weeks ago I was in Italy and there was lots of reports about crowd numbers. That weekend there were at least 4 games with crowds around 6000...... in Div1 Italy. A recent  weekend in France only one game got over 20,000 fan, across the whole of Div1. The Nix do OK all things considered

What is the reason for that then? wouldn't be related to the standard of play now would it?

No, not necessarily. In Germany's case, it is as much about fan experience - fantastic new stadiums (2006 WC helped) + dedicated standing areas that generate awesome atmosphere.  England, more about TV money buying top names and a market big enough to pay the bucks to see them with better quality & then more money and so and so on in a (arguably) virtuous circle.

The fan experiance in Germany is amazing, plus the tickets can be as low as 10 euros. In Germany going to the football is a hip thing to do. Lots and lots of 20 to 30 year olds go. There a real buzz at the games. The football is excellent too. But it is more than the quality of the football that brings in the crowds. Last year I was in Portugal and saw two Div 1 games. Both games were teams in the middle of the table. The football was outstanding...fast, very technical with loads of skillful players. But the crowd for both games was under 5000......

From my memory of Nix home games the crowd seems to be families and middle aged guys. So where are the people aged in their 20s and 30s, who play football or are football supporters?.

This weekend the Nix play in Auckland. A city of 1.6 million, which is around a third of NZ's population. Considering there are around 110,000??? registered players in NZ then there must be close to 35,000+ registered players in Auckland. If even half of them went to see the Nix and took a partner then there would be a bumper crowd. But the Nix are hoping to get 10,000 at Mt Smart. So why the disconnect for people who actually play football and don't want to go and see a pro game? For me the normal Auckland excuses don't stack up. 5.30 on a Saturday at Mt Smart is a perfect. No congestion problems, central venue etc. Maybe the Nix should be looking at marketing directly to the Auckland football clubs.....half price for all registered club players if they buy two tickets!!!!

Marquee
970
·
6.5K
·
over 11 years

austin10 wrote:

Turfmoore wrote:

austin10 wrote:

Its actually a world wide problem. In Europe football crowd numbers have been falling for years(except Germany and England) A few weeks ago I was in Italy and there was lots of reports about crowd numbers. That weekend there were at least 4 games with crowds around 6000...... in Div1 Italy. A recent  weekend in France only one game got over 20,000 fan, across the whole of Div1. The Nix do OK all things considered

What is the reason for that then? wouldn't be related to the standard of play now would it?

No, not necessarily. In Germany's case, it is as much about fan experience - fantastic new stadiums (2006 WC helped) + dedicated standing areas that generate awesome atmosphere.  England, more about TV money buying top names and a market big enough to pay the bucks to see them with better quality & then more money and so and so on in a (arguably) virtuous circle.

The fan experiance in Germany is amazing, plus the tickets can be as low as 10 euros. In Germany going to the football is a hip thing to do. Lots and lots of 20 to 30 year olds go. There a real buzz at the games. The football is excellent too. But it is more than the quality of the football that brings in the crowds. Last year I was in Portugal and saw two Div 1 games. Both games were teams in the middle of the table. The football was outstanding...fast, very technical with loads of skillful players. But the crowd for both games was under 5000......

From my memory of Nix home games the crowd seems to be families and middle aged guys. So where are the people aged in their 20s and 30s, who play football or are football supporters?.

This weekend the Nix play in Auckland. A city of 1.6 million, which is around a third of NZ's population. Considering there are around 110,000??? registered players in NZ then there must be close to 35,000+ registered players in Auckland. If even half of them went to see the Nix and took a partner then there would be a bumper crowd. But the Nix are hoping to get 10,000 at Mt Smart. So why the disconnect for people who actually play football and don't want to go and see a pro game? For me the normal Auckland excuses don't stack up. 5.30 on a Saturday at Mt Smart is a perfect. No congestion problems, central venue etc. Maybe the Nix should be looking at marketing directly to the Auckland football clubs.....half price for all registered club players if they buy two tickets!!!!

Trouble is almost all the registered club players don't even bother turning up to support their club's first team! All over the country, not just in Auckland. I think most club players are just in it for the exercise and socialising with mates. Watch football? Gotta be joking mate. Got better things to do withe my time eh.

First Team Squad
280
·
1.6K
·
about 12 years

Jerzy Merino wrote:

Trouble is almost all the registered club players don't even bother turning up to support their club's first team! All over the country, not just in Auckland. I think most club players are just in it for the exercise and socialising with mates. Watch football? Gotta be joking mate. Got better things to do withe my time eh.

could be merit in this. In NZ is there quite a binary grouping of those who watch (a lot) and those who don't watch?
LG
Legend
5.7K
·
23K
·
almost 17 years

There is a lot of merit in this statement. Which is really sad. 30+ years ago we all used to try and watch our respective first teams play. Nowdays, there is no loyalty.

Marquee
5.3K
·
9.5K
·
over 12 years

Jerzy Merino wrote:

austin10 wrote:

Turfmoore wrote:

austin10 wrote:

Its actually a world wide problem. In Europe football crowd numbers have been falling for years(except Germany and England) A few weeks ago I was in Italy and there was lots of reports about crowd numbers. That weekend there were at least 4 games with crowds around 6000...... in Div1 Italy. A recent  weekend in France only one game got over 20,000 fan, across the whole of Div1. The Nix do OK all things considered

What is the reason for that then? wouldn't be related to the standard of play now would it?

No, not necessarily. In Germany's case, it is as much about fan experience - fantastic new stadiums (2006 WC helped) + dedicated standing areas that generate awesome atmosphere.  England, more about TV money buying top names and a market big enough to pay the bucks to see them with better quality & then more money and so and so on in a (arguably) virtuous circle.

The fan experiance in Germany is amazing, plus the tickets can be as low as 10 euros. In Germany going to the football is a hip thing to do. Lots and lots of 20 to 30 year olds go. There a real buzz at the games. The football is excellent too. But it is more than the quality of the football that brings in the crowds. Last year I was in Portugal and saw two Div 1 games. Both games were teams in the middle of the table. The football was outstanding...fast, very technical with loads of skillful players. But the crowd for both games was under 5000......

From my memory of Nix home games the crowd seems to be families and middle aged guys. So where are the people aged in their 20s and 30s, who play football or are football supporters?.

This weekend the Nix play in Auckland. A city of 1.6 million, which is around a third of NZ's population. Considering there are around 110,000??? registered players in NZ then there must be close to 35,000+ registered players in Auckland. If even half of them went to see the Nix and took a partner then there would be a bumper crowd. But the Nix are hoping to get 10,000 at Mt Smart. So why the disconnect for people who actually play football and don't want to go and see a pro game? For me the normal Auckland excuses don't stack up. 5.30 on a Saturday at Mt Smart is a perfect. No congestion problems, central venue etc. Maybe the Nix should be looking at marketing directly to the Auckland football clubs.....half price for all registered club players if they buy two tickets!!!!

Trouble is almost all the registered club players don't even bother turning up to support their club's first team! All over the country, not just in Auckland. I think most club players are just in it for the exercise and socialising with mates. Watch football? Gotta be joking mate. Got better things to do withe my time eh.

I think there's some truth to that but only some, and I don't think a comparison with watching the club you play for's first team vs going to the Nix is completely fair. For a start, Nix games are in summer when the weather is more conducive to watching sport, and not at roughly the same time that the social players themselves play. I've played a lot of social football in many different teams in both Palmy and Wellington and there are a lot of guys who are into football, at least to the point of following the EPL and Champions League, and playing FIFA on the PlayStation or Xbox. They probably outnumber the guys who don't care at all about football and are just there for exercise and a laugh with their mates, in my experience. They are also generally dismissive of local football, the Nix, the A League and even the AWs. I think that they can be won over and they're a massive untapped market. Saying, nah they just don't want to watch is defeatist. Why don't they? How can we make them change their minds?
Tegal
·
Head Sleuth
3K
·
19K
·
almost 17 years

locally in Wellington I think there is a bit of bitterness among the top club players. You hear all about the time they played the nix in a preseason friendly and how shark they are and how shark this and that player is etc. think that is slowly changing as younger guys who have followed the nix since they were kids start to come through those teams, as they're potentially already nix fans. 

Life and death
2.4K
·
5.5K
·
about 17 years

Lonegunmen wrote:

There is a lot of merit in this statement. Which is really sad. 30+ years ago we all used to try and watch our respective first teams play. Nowdays, there is no loyalty.

Never bothered me, I was always in the first team lol
Marquee
970
·
6.5K
·
over 11 years

[/quote]I think there's some truth to that but only some, and I don't think a comparison with watching the club you play for's first team vs going to the Nix is completely fair. For a start, Nix games are in summer when the weather is more conducive to watching sport, and not at roughly the same time that the social players themselves play. I've played a lot of social football in many different teams in both Palmy and Wellington and there are a lot of guys who are into football, at least to the point of following the EPL and Champions League, and playing FIFA on the PlayStation or Xbox. They probably outnumber the guys who don't care at all about football and are just there for exercise and a laugh with their mates, in my experience. They are also generally dismissive of local football, the Nix, the A League and even the AWs. I think that they can be won over and they're a massive untapped market. Saying, nah they just don't want to watch is defeatist. Why don't they? How can we make them change their minds?

a) Give them a winning team to support

b) Give them (and their wives/girlfriends/sisters/brothers) a couple of true marquee players to watch

c) Hire a rock star manager/coach

Phoenix Academy
290
·
360
·
almost 9 years

The Wellingtonians amongst you won't like this but I think with the current 10 team 3 round structure 1 team in NZ format, of the 13 or 14 home games a season, only 9 games (one against each team) should be played in Wellington.  The 4 or 5 instances where we have a second home game against a team should be taken out around the country.

Reasoning being to maximise revenue by making the product scarcer., after all who wants to see CCM, or NEW twice?  If you want to see WSW or MV you'll only have one chance not two.   Sure you lose a little in home ground advantage but with the exception of Auckland, it makes the road trip more demanding on the opposition with the extra flight involved.

With the Wellington home games, split them evenly being family friendly kick offs and corporate friendly kick offs.

To get more club and club player  involvement with games, have someone in head office negotiate with the bus companies, and put package together where for each club there is a bus with 50 game tickets leaving from the club carpark.  This can work for the senior teams having a night out, or Mum&Dad taking the under 12s, or the 13-18s being independent.

The Travelling Circus - playing home games around NZ

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