Fairfax Stuff. Series on Youth Development (Wellington)

Starting XI
280
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2.7K
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over 16 years

Smithy wrote:

zonknz wrote:

That's a fair point, that there is a debate to be had. The proposition I read in that article seems to be about promoting the federations and schools interests , over the academies. 

I personally find it interesting that players are not seen as keen stakeholders in the discussion, and there is no.mention of player or parent engagement.

What value do you expect kids to add to the discussion?

Or to be honest most parents...

For me it isn't that they're not asking the kids, it's that it doesn't seem to take player development into account at all. The proposals mentioned are all about trying to let everyone have their cake and eat it too, which is going to do next to nothing about these tensions. All that is going to happen is clubs and academies will "officially" allow their players to do these things while quietly encouraging them to refuse to take part (also watch while the Phoenix academy get exempted from the requirements). Capital Football needs to decide if it wants players to get a consistent coaching message or let the current mess continue. If they are really concerned about player development the accreditation would be about the quality of the coaching at clubs and academies rather than who gets access to the players.

Life and death
2.4K
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5.5K
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about 17 years

Sorry everyone, 

I'm missing something. What is different about what each of these groups is teaching? Surely the basic football skills are the same and any difference there will be on what emphasis they put on each skill? Is it the tactical side of the game? I keep comparing it back to basketball, they all learn and work on the same skills but the coaches and teams have different playing methods and game philosophy. My son for example can easily play for anyone and while he is utilised better in some environments than others, it doesnt detract from his actual ability.

Marquee
970
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6.5K
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over 11 years

Sorry everyone, 

I'm missing something. What is different about what each of these groups is teaching? Surely the basic football skills are the same and any difference there will be on what emphasis they put on each skill? Is it the tactical side of the game? I keep comparing it back to basketball, they all learn and work on the same skills but the coaches and teams have different playing methods and game philosophy. My son for example can easily play for anyone and while he is utilised better in some environments than others, it doesnt detract from his actual ability.

Kicking a football is no longer just about timing, power and accuracy mate, it's now also about spin.

Stage Punch
2.1K
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11K
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over 16 years

Smithy wrote:

zonknz wrote:

That's a fair point, that there is a debate to be had. The proposition I read in that article seems to be about promoting the federations and schools interests , over the academies. 

I personally find it interesting that players are not seen as keen stakeholders in the discussion, and there is no.mention of player or parent engagement.

What value do you expect kids to add to the discussion?

Or to be honest most parents...

For me it isn't that they're not asking the kids, it's that it doesn't seem to take player development into account at all. The proposals mentioned are all about trying to let everyone have their cake and eat it too, which is going to do next to nothing about these tensions. All that is going to happen is clubs and academies will "officially" allow their players to do these things while quietly encouraging them to refuse to take part (also watch while the Phoenix academy get exempted from the requirements). Capital Football needs to decide if it wants players to get a consistent coaching message or let the current mess continue. If they are really concerned about player development the accreditation would be about the quality of the coaching at clubs and academies rather than who gets access to the players.

 

Okay so I think there are some realities here that you need to account for.

First of all there is no answer to the question "what is BEST for player development" it's not like last weekend's Lotto numbers. 

Second of all Capital Football can't "tell" young players or their parents what to do. They aren't the Police. They don't have any real power to compel anyone to do anything, which Richard Reid alluded to when he said "we don't work for NZF we work for our Clubs."

What would you have them do? Say "right, everyone has to do Ole now because that is best." And if people don't? Then what?

For a brief period the rule was that if you didn't do FTC you wouldn't be eligible for NTC, and so selection to national teams would be on the line. You know what happened to that rule? It got ignored. Because national team coaches want the best players. And so they should.

I also don't agree with you that Capital Football aren't taking player development into account. I think they care about it very much. They also recognise that any system is imperfect, and nobody has the "one true way." So what they're being is pragmatic, rather than not caring.

They are, in my view, doing exactly what they should. They are trying to have an open dialogue, and some oversight.

The accreditation system is a good idea, in theory anyway.

Done right it will help parents distinguish between Ole and Kaizen and some sharkhouse holiday programme run for cash by "AC Milan" or whatever. When asked, Capital Football will at least be able to say "yes, that academy is accredited by us." Or, more significantly, "no, that one isn't." It will also take the pressure off kids to do it all by establishing some loose equivalence.

And the biggest issue here is the pressure kids feel to go one way or another. This sort of "between the providers" dialogue should be the start of mitigating that. You'd hope. Incidentally this is the sort of thing Capital Football has tried to do with schools but College Sport were never interested.

Starting XI
490
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2.1K
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over 14 years

Smithy wrote:

The accreditation system is a good idea, in theory anyway.

I think your post is well considered, and agree with most of it. That said, its fair to recognise that Capital Football at some level, would prefer to have the 'best players' in its FTC sides and the national age grade tourno's, much in the same way that Colleges would also prefer this. So in much as they could establish some sort of accreditation, they are interested in the promotion of the game, and player development, but they are not an an out and out neutral party in what the right model is/should be, any more that the academies themselves, and any accreditation should be treated with some sceptiscim.

It would be fair to say that the local academies have clearly improved the level of Capital Football competitions at Senior and junior levels, that's a net good for Capital Football.


But oh yes, the School holiday branded "programs" are the worst of the worst.

WeeNix
280
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630
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over 16 years

Smithy: you inquired about a registered charity running a football academy.....

Melville AFC  (Charity Reg No CC39872) registered in 2009


Overseeing the Melville United Football Academy (run by Sam Wilkinson and Michael Mayne).



Legend
2.1K
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16K
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about 17 years

zonknz wrote:

Smithy wrote:

james dean wrote:

zonknz wrote:

James Dean, as stated elsewhere, not all academies are the same. Some are for profit, others are non-profit trusts. Parents, do your research.

True

Who is a not for profit trust? Show me one registered charitable trust running an academy.

You'll find Ole and Shane Rufer in the register if you look, as well as some other regional player development charities.

true. Ole will need to cut down on their accounting costs if they want to push for National league

Marquee
2.1K
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8.2K
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about 17 years

Can I also point out that just because you are a charity does not mean that your "founders" can get paid?

Stage Punch
2.1K
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11K
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over 16 years

james dean wrote:

Can I also point out that just because you are a charity does not mean that your "founders" can get paid?

 

Eh?

Stage Punch
2.1K
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11K
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over 16 years

zonknz wrote:

Smithy wrote:

The accreditation system is a good idea, in theory anyway.

I think your post is well considered, and agree with most of it. That said, its fair to recognise that Capital Football at some level, would prefer to have the 'best players' in its FTC sides and the national age grade tourno's, much in the same way that Colleges would also prefer this. So in much as they could establish some sort of accreditation, they are interested in the promotion of the game, and player development, but they are not an an out and out neutral party in what the right model is/should be, any more that the academies themselves, and any accreditation should be treated with some sceptiscim.

It would be fair to say that the local academies have clearly improved the level of Capital Football competitions at Senior and junior levels, that's a net good for Capital Football.


But oh yes, the School holiday branded "programs" are the worst of the worst.

 

Quite cynical, and I do not think consistent with the behaviour of Capital Football. To the best of my understanding they don't put any pressure on kids who don't attend FTC to change their minds.

The national tournament is slightly different (in their eyes anyway) because it's a shop window for national team selection. Or that's my (limited) understanding anyway.

I also take issue with the way you characterise some things as certainties.

"Fair to say that local academies have clearly improved the level..." Really? By what measure? I mean this might be true, but how would we know? For example I think this year's Central League has been one of the worst, on balance, that I've ever watched. Wests, Wairarapa and Stop Out have dominated and the bottom half of the table has been absolutely woeful. Marist, Taranaki, Olympic even Miramar have been dreadful. 

"That's a net good for Capital Football" again based on what? If you start from the position that Capital Football's goal is to have the best competitions then maybe. But I don't think that's what they're about really. They want lots of people to play, they want to gradually improve a variety of areas of the game from women's participation to facility quality to governance to elite development but do they want their competitions to be the strongest?

Anyway, I think Capital Football are trying to do a good thing by brokering some peace and opening a dialogue amongst all of these providers. Graeme Sole used to do the same waaaaaay back when everything was in black and white and I think it worked quite well. Ole were much more part of the Federation family back then, for example.

Starting XI
490
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2.1K
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over 14 years

In fairness, I am not cynical about Capital Football, I am sceptical about any organisation on the goals they seek to achieve in any outcome. All organisations have drivers that lead to decisions, my point is the academies, Colleges and CF have drivers, some will align, and some will be in conflict.

That conflict exists might actually be a natural state of affairs, - if the outcome desired is long term player development, over short term success.

Stage Punch
2.1K
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11K
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over 16 years

zonknz wrote:

In fairness, I am not cynical about Capital Football, I am sceptical about any organisation on the goals they seek to achieve in any outcome. All organisations have drivers that lead to decisions, my point is the academies, Colleges and CF have drivers, some will align, and some will be in conflict.

That conflict exists might actually be a natural state of affairs, - if the outcome desired is long term player development, over short term success.

 

Agree entirely. 

One in a million
4.1K
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9.5K
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about 17 years

Comparing football academies is like comparing football teams in a league. No one system will always win any game. Systems must try and get the best return from all the variables. That's what makes it so exciting.

Marquee
5.3K
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9.5K
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over 12 years

I'd be really interested to hear what NZF's new Austrian fellow thinks of the academy systems and the state of youth development in New Zealand football, let alone what his plan is for it. Is there going to be an interview with him as part of this series?

Starting XI
490
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2.1K
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over 14 years

Ole have just published this:

https://www.theoleway.com/blog/2017/8/6/the-ole-wa...

Pre-emptive stake in the ground prior to the October meeting...

Stage Punch
2.1K
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11K
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over 16 years

zonknz wrote:

Ole have just published this:

https://www.theoleway.com/blog/2017/8/6/the-ole-wa...

Pre-emptive stake in the ground prior to the October meeting...

 

Chortle.

I'm full of admiration for what Ole and Wests are currently achieving, but anyone who knows a little bit of the history of Ole and Wests would not use the words "sustainable" and "collaborative" to describe that relationship "over 20 years".

They're doing great at it now, for sure, but it hasn't been a smooth road.

That blog post would be much more credible if they said "we've spent 20 years trying to do this, with both successes and failures, and we think what we've arrived at is really good."

Maybe that is what they're trying to say. It just comes across very superior.

WeeNix
200
·
950
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about 14 years

Smithy wrote:

zonknz wrote:

Ole have just published this:

https://www.theoleway.com/blog/2017/8/6/the-ole-wa...

Pre-emptive stake in the ground prior to the October meeting...

 

Chortle.

I'm full of admiration for what Ole and Wests are currently achieving, but anyone who knows a little bit of the history of Ole and Wests would not use the words "sustainable" and "collaborative" to describe that relationship "over 20 years".

They're doing great at it now, for sure, but it hasn't been a smooth road.

That blog post would be much more credible if they said "we've spent 20 years trying to do this, with both successes and failures, and we think what we've arrived at is really good."

Maybe that is what they're trying to say. It just comes across very superior.

Love a good acronym, don't they?

Starting XI
490
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2.1K
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over 14 years

Certainly truth in the fractious nature of the Ole/West's over the longer period of time, but I read it to mean that over 20 years of history/models/thinking has gone into their current model, which has operated for around 4-5 years, i.e the club-associated model, with the model from juniors through to seniors working with the same coaches.

First Team Squad
280
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1.6K
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almost 12 years

Impressive website

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