World Cup Football standard

LFCNZ
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Where would you rate it?  There are teams that would struggle in the major top leagues, but any team that makes the quarter finals I reckon would be close to CL standard.

World Cup winners v CL league winners for the same year would be interesting.

Colvinator
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Real Madrid sure do win the Champions League a lot in World Cup years:

98: Real Madrid

02: Real Madrid

06: Barcelona

10: Inter

14: Real Madrid

18: Real Madrid

el grapadura
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Colvinator wrote:

Real Madrid sure do win the Champions League a lot in World Cup years:

98: Real Madrid

02: Real Madrid

06: Barcelona

10: Inter

14: Real Madrid

18: Real Madrid

1958 and 1966 too.

Critical_Lemon
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LFCNZ wrote:

Where would you rate it?  There are teams that would struggle in the major top leagues, but any team that makes the quarter finals I reckon would be close to CL standard.

World Cup winners v CL league winners for the same year would be interesting.

I think it depends on whether you're talking about in the abstract or a real-life game. If you could control for a bunch of stuff like time spent training together then there's a bunch of teams that could give Real a decent game. If you put them together for a real friendly then you're really only looking at teams like Germany, Croatia, and Spain who have good players and a strong collective. No one else is really clicking yet (and obviously even Germany are finding unlocking organised teams hard).

EDIT: I forgot Belgium, how could I forget Belgium?

Hard News
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Dark horses and all that.

20 Legend
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I think it's way below par.

My evidence is how players who are absolute trash for lower level premier league clubs seem to become kings for their country.

That's down to weak defences and stretched games.

el grapadura
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20 Legend wrote:
 

My evidence is how players who are absolute trash for lower level premier league clubs seem to become kings for their country.

Like who exactly?

Overall, though, as Critical Lemon has said, it's pretty hard to compare club v international football. The dynamics of each are way too different to make any meaningful comparison. But this World Cup has been very enjoyable, there have been lots of good games and no-one is finding it easy, which is exactyly what you want.

20 Legend
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el grapadura wrote:

20 Legend wrote:
 

My evidence is how players who are absolute trash for lower level premier league clubs seem to become kings for their country.

Like who exactly?

Overall, though, as Critical Lemon has said, it's pretty hard to compare club v international football. The dynamics of each are way too different to make any meaningful comparison. But this World Cup has been very enjoyable, there have been lots of good games and no-one is finding it easy, which is exactyly what you want.

Every game with some trash team has one player who plays for Sunderland/Stoke/Newcastle or something equally trash and they become stand out players for their team and for the game in general.

Walsall Boy
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20 Legend wrote:

el grapadura wrote:

20 Legend wrote:
 

My evidence is how players who are absolute trash for lower level premier league clubs seem to become kings for their country.

Like who exactly?

Overall, though, as Critical Lemon has said, it's pretty hard to compare club v international football. The dynamics of each are way too different to make any meaningful comparison. But this World Cup has been very enjoyable, there have been lots of good games and no-one is finding it easy, which is exactyly what you want.

Every game with some trash team has one player who plays for Sunderland/Stoke/Newcastle or something equally trash and they become stand out players for their team and for the game in general.

I think he was meaning names of indivisuals Bud.  I can recal players being mentioned as playing for Stoke etc a you ention but not being outstanding

el grapadura
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20 Legend wrote:

el grapadura wrote:

20 Legend wrote:
 

My evidence is how players who are absolute trash for lower level premier league clubs seem to become kings for their country.

Like who exactly?

Overall, though, as Critical Lemon has said, it's pretty hard to compare club v international football. The dynamics of each are way too different to make any meaningful comparison. But this World Cup has been very enjoyable, there have been lots of good games and no-one is finding it easy, which is exactyly what you want.

Every game with some trash team has one player who plays for Sunderland/Stoke/Newcastle or something equally trash and they become stand out players for their team and for the game in general.

There's a couple of points here. Firstly, players have to fit within the team that they play for. Players have different qualities, and these show in different light depending on the way the team that they play for plays. Additionally, in international football, the style of play is adjusted to what gives the available players the best chance to win; in club football, it's really the other way around (i.e. you pick players who can pull off the style you want to play). So to say that the standard is lower because Player X looks better playing for Switzerland or whatever rather than Newcastle or whatever is pretty misguided. Not to mention that calling players playing for those kind of clubs trash is interesting in itself - if they are trash, what about the Phoenix players then?

Secondly, the general observation doesn't really work at an even basic level, since by the same token, some of the best players in the world right now (let's say Messi and Neymar) have really struggled in the World Cup so far, so using this kind of logic, you could easily be saying that the standard here is higher.

Either way, comparing the two is pretty difficult and there is no way of objectively determining the standard one way or another. 

happydays
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You can't compare international tournaments with regular leagues. There are always players who star for their countries but don't produce regularly for their clubs, eg Ospina for Colombia. And it wasn't that long ago that NZ played out of their skins to draw with Italy, which didn't make the tournament trash, it's just what happens.

Rather than trying to compare the 2, just enjoy the World Cup for what it is, and so far there's been some great football, some average and plenty of cheating - just like any regular club season.

The JourneyFan
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I reckon its been good but not as great as some of the media are trying to make out

got to say enjoy it though as once we get to 48 teams there will be alot more games like Russia v Saudi Arabia and England v Paraguay

http://thejourneyfan.blogspot.co.nz/

New Zealand Football Media Association Website of the year 2015 & 2016

el grapadura
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I reckon its been good but not as great as some of the media are trying to make out

got to say enjoy it though as once we get to 48 teams there will be alot more games like Russia v Saudi Arabia and England v Paraguay

You mean Panama?

The JourneyFan
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el grapadura wrote:

I reckon its been good but not as great as some of the media are trying to make out

got to say enjoy it though as once we get to 48 teams there will be alot more games like Russia v Saudi Arabia and England v Paraguay

You mean Panama?

aye of course, and I can't blame auto-correct!

http://thejourneyfan.blogspot.co.nz/

New Zealand Football Media Association Website of the year 2015 & 2016

2ndBest
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Hard to say whether there will be a lot more. Suspect increases in CAF, CONMEBOL and UEFA allocation won't see a drastic drop off in quality.

CONCACAF going from 3.5 to 6 is a concern because traditionally the USA, Mexico and Costa Rica have been the only decent sides and the drop off seems to be quite big after that.

AFC goes from 4.5 to 8 is another one. But don't think the drop off from those that qualified that the next 4 is that huge, and given the amount of money floating around the confederation, the standard could rise in the next 8 years.

martinb
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happydays wrote:

You can't compare international tournaments with regular leagues. There are always players who star for their countries but don't produce regularly for their clubs, eg Ospina for Colombia. And it wasn't that long ago that NZ played out of their skins to draw with Italy, which didn't make the tournament trash, it's just what happens.

Rather than trying to compare the 2, just enjoy the World Cup for what it is, and so far there's been some great football, some average and plenty of cheating - just like any regular club season.

And it is knock out football. Look at the differences between cup competitions and leagues. It is easier for a team to put together an over performance or stonewall and steal a win. Almost any player in the premier league is good enough to score a WC goal or do something decisive in a WC game. Are you really saying Shaqiri isn't quality? 

There's also the nature of representing a country and the 4 year gap until the next chance- this is huge for a lot of people. There is the potential for a lot of motivation and cohesiveness in a team that you don't necessarily find in a club game. It's an event that draws the attention of people who don't follow football week in and week out. It is a spectacle that a league game can't compete with except perhaps in exceptional circumstances. 

Then you also have players who are quite capable for club who struggle with that pressure- if you look at the misses from Lingard, Sterling, Messi....

pacy

el grapadura
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2ndBest wrote:

Hard to say whether there will be a lot more. Suspect increases in CAF, CONMEBOL and UEFA allocation won't see a drastic drop off in quality.

CONCACAF going from 3.5 to 6 is a concern because traditionally the USA, Mexico and Costa Rica have been the only decent sides and the drop off seems to be quite big after that.

AFC goes from 4.5 to 8 is another one. But don't think the drop off from those that qualified that the next 4 is that huge, and given the amount of money floating around the confederation, the standard could rise in the next 8 years.

Agree. CONCACAF is definitely the biggest worry, though the fact that more spots will be available could motivate more English-born players of Caribbean heritage to play for the sides like Jamaica and T&T (or if not more, at least those who have been playing may play more often, and not wait for the Hex because they can't be bothered with the travel).

el grapadura
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martinb wrote:
 

There's also the nature of representing a country and the 4 year gap until the next chance- this is huge for a lot of people. There is the potential for a lot of motivation and cohesiveness in a team that you don't necessarily find in a club game. It's an event that draws the attention of people who don't follow football week in and week out. It is a spectacle that a league game can't compete with except perhaps in exceptional circumstances. 

Couple of great points here too. I was watching the post-match of Argentina v Croatia on BBC the other day, and Pablo Zabaleta made a point relating to Caballero's error for the first goal that really encapsulates this. He said something along the lines of - if that's a normal league game, you feel a little bit bad, but in 3-4 days you have another game, and another one after that, and it's not really problem. In the World Cup, you don't get another chance for four years, or maybe never. A mistake like that can stay with you for the rest of your life.

20 Legend
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el grapadura wrote:

There's a couple of points here. Firstly, players have to fit within the team that they play for. Players have different qualities, and these show in different light depending on the way the team that they play for plays. Additionally, in international football, the style of play is adjusted to what gives the available players the best chance to win; in club football, it's really the other way around (i.e. you pick players who can pull off the style you want to play). So to say that the standard is lower because Player X looks better playing for Switzerland or whatever rather than Newcastle or whatever is pretty misguided. Not to mention that calling players playing for those kind of clubs trash is interesting in itself - if they are trash, what about the Phoenix players then?

Secondly, the general observation doesn't really work at an even basic level, since by the same token, some of the best players in the world right now (let's say Messi and Neymar) have really struggled in the World Cup so far, so using this kind of logic, you could easily be saying that the standard here is higher.

Either way, comparing the two is pretty difficult and there is no way of objectively determining the standard one way or another. 

Well yeah, exactly. The standard is lower because teams have to adapt to what they are given. Whereas club football the club adapts to build the best team.

I kind of take your point about Messi and Neymar but then both examples have bigger factors at play. Neymar has spent the year bumming around and Messi's extraordinary talent has a lot to do with having Barcelona players around him.

el grapadura
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20 Legend wrote:
 

Well yeah, exactly. The standard is lower because teams have to adapt to what they are given. Whereas club football the club adapts to build the best team.

Well no - it doesn't mean that the standard is lower, just that games are approached differently. Because if your view was correct, than Leyton Orient would have a better side than, let's say, Switzerland, and that quite clearly isn't the case. 

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