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EURO 2016

liberty_nz
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Buffon II wrote:

You are aware that club football and international football are two completely different environments, right?

Yes I am. you are the one that mixed club and international performances in your previous comments. Not me.

The after-timing is really just judging the performance of players. Are you saying that England is immune from that? No one is disparaging of Wales, Iceland, perhaps to a lesser extent Germany. 

Ironically, a number (including myself) are sniffing at Portugal even though they won the thing. 

portugal played poorly and won the whole thing. England played poorly and went home round of 16. I think that England needs to own the fact they played (and were coached) poorly.

liberty_nz
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..

Edited by liberty_nz July 12, 2016 22:03
Buffon II
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Jaume wrote:

There's a reason Spanish teams are currently the best: because the whole league is. Hence why Sevilla unsurprisingly to most Spaniards easily defeated Liverpool for another Europa League. 

Nope, you are wrong. Apart from the top 3-4 the league is sharke. Teams rolling over for the big boys every week. I don't like Mourinho at all but he is spot on when comparing the two leagues. La Liga is tough to win because the very top teams win almost every week, leaving no room for error. But as he says, you only have to focus your energy on one, maybe two rivals. In England every game is tough, every week is tough. After Barca or Real play their CL match midweek they get an easy trip to Las Palmas or Granada who bend over for them 9 times out of 10. The English clubs face a three day turnaround before going somewhere gruelling like Sunderland or Palace away, with managers who actually give a shark about making life difficult for the bigger opposition.

No one anywhere was surprised about Sevilla winning ffs. Liverpool finished 8th in the league. They were hardly kings of England.

Also you'll be waiting a long time for Leicester to lose to Basel mate. Barring half their side being plundered in this transfer window, you aren't going to see the runaway champions of England beaten by some Swiss no marks. But then i can tell from the rest of the drivel in your post it's either 1) Another dig at the Premier League/English football or 2) A lack of respect to what Leicester have achieved and the ability of their squad. Maybe even both.

Three for me, and two for them.

Jaume
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The ranking of leagues by UEFA is objective: it measures the quality of teams based on their performance in European competitions. If English teams were better currently they'd be destroying the Champions League, wouldn't they? 

The fact that the third best Spanish team (Atletico Madrid) can defeat teams like Bayern Munich speaks volumes of the current state of affairs. Atletico Madrid has proven they are currently better than any English team.

I'm not having a dig at the Premier League/English football, rather saying in comparison the quality is not as good, or else the English league/national team would be winning it all.

Edited by Jaume July 12, 2016 22:14
el grapadura
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Buffon II wrote:

Jaume wrote:

There's a reason Spanish teams are currently the best: because the whole league is. Hence why Sevilla unsurprisingly to most Spaniards easily defeated Liverpool for another Europa League. 

Nope, you are wrong. Apart from the top 3-4 the league is sharke. Teams rolling over for the big boys every week. I don't like Mourinho at all but he is spot on when comparing the two leagues. La Liga is tough to win because the very top teams win almost every week, leaving no room for error. But as he says, you only have to focus your energy on one, maybe two rivals. In England every game is tough, every week is tough. After Barca or Real play their CL match midweek they get an easy trip to Las Palmas or Granada who bend over for them 9 times out of 10. The English clubs face a three day turnaround before going somewhere gruelling like Sunderland or Palace away, with managers who actually give a shark about making life difficult for the bigger opposition.

No one anywhere was surprised about Sevilla winning ffs. Liverpool finished 8th in the league. They were hardly kings of England.

Also you'll be waiting a long time for Leicester to lose to Basel mate. Barring half their side being plundered in this transfer window, you aren't going to see the runaway champions of England beaten by some Swiss no marks. But then i can tell from the rest of the drivel in your post it's either 1) Another dig at the Premier League/English football or 2) A lack of respect to what Leicester have achieved and the ability of their squad. Maybe even both.

I'm sorry Buffy, but that's absolute bollocks. Mourinho is (and always has been) full of shark when it comes to public pronouncements, and is notorious for sour grapes - no surprises then that he said that given his failure in Spain. 

The reality is that the very best in Spain are light years ahead of everyone but Bayern, but the next tier of Spanish teams (including Valencia, Sevilla, Villarreal, Athletic Bilbao) could compete for top positions in England on half the budgets of Premier League teams. Their domination of European competition over the last few years has been absolutely ridiculous, and that's not just Barca and Real Madrid.

el grapadura
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Buffon II wrote:

Also you'll be waiting a long time for Leicester to lose to Basel mate. Barring half their side being plundered in this transfer window, you aren't going to see the runaway champions of England beaten by some Swiss no marks. But then i can tell from the rest of the drivel in your post it's either 1) Another dig at the Premier League/English football or 2) A lack of respect to what Leicester have achieved and the ability of their squad. Maybe even both.

And in case of any doubt - the game mattered to United. They were knocked out of the group stage of the Champions League because of this loss.

Buffon II
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el grapadura wrote:

The reality is that the very best in Spain are light years ahead of everyone but Bayern, but the next tier of Spanish teams (including Valencia, Sevilla, Villarreal, Athletic Bilbao) could compete for top positions in England on half the budgets of Premier League teams. Their domination of European competition over the last few years has been absolutely ridiculous, and that's not just Barca and Real Madrid.

I'm doing it like this because my quoting skills are absolute gash.

The bolded bit: I don't think anyone is arguing that, nor have i said that anywhere.

The italics bit: Money in football is stupid, no more so than the Premier League. Irrelevant. Valencia were awful last season, i really don't see an argument for them competing for top (we'll say CL spots) positions in England as things currently stand. Sevilla? Yeah i can see that, but again i can't remember them being tested by any English heavyweights recently, or European for that matter. Seem to dominate a second tier competition without ever making the necessary step up. Villarreal. Put out on the arse by a bog standard Liverpool. Athletic Bilbao, debatable.

The regular bit: Well, add Atleti in to the mix and it sort of is though. Sevilla have dominated a second tier competition, but really it is the very best in Spain, who as you say are light years ahead of everyone, dominating. Not really a surprise when you look at the state of their two squads.

Three for me, and two for them.

Buffon II
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Just as an aside, how many players have moved from La Liga to the Premier League recently and been a success? And vice versa.

Three for me, and two for them.

el grapadura
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But it's all subjective, isn't it? You don't think those teams would compete, and dismiss them for rolling over to Barca and Real Madrid, yet when they play in Europe, the only reasonably objective parameter we have, they tend to do much better than English teams, certainly over the least few years. Surely at some point there has to be recognition that despite subjective beliefs in the strength of the Premier League, the only objective standard available suggests that as a league, it's some way behind La Liga. And not just because of Barca and Real.

el grapadura
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Buffon II wrote:

Just as an aside, how many players have moved from La Liga to the Premier League recently and been a success? And vice versa.

Actually, the reality is that the Premier League, despite the cash, can't get the best players in the world to play there.

Of the best 5 players in the world right now, how many play in England? 

0.

Buffon II
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Tbh i was more getting at the likes of Las Palmas, Granada, Rayo, Almeira, Getafe etc.. for rolling over as opposed to Sevilla, Valencia and the like. The equivalents in England don't tend to do that, therefore leading to tougher fixtures, tougher competition, and a harder time dealing with squad rotation (can't wait for Pep to see all this first hand).

There's also a winter break in Spain.

But yes it is all subjective. Using the top 15-20% of teams who get to compete in European competition as a barometer for the strength of the whole league is too unbalanced imo.

Three for me, and two for them.

Buffon II
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el grapadura wrote:

Buffon II wrote:

Just as an aside, how many players have moved from La Liga to the Premier League recently and been a success? And vice versa.

Actually, the reality is that the Premier League, despite the cash, can't get the best players in the world to play there.

Of the best 5 players in the world right now, how many play in England? 

0.

That wasn't what i asked.

And who are the top 5 players in the world anyway?

Christ we could be here till sunrise at this rate 

Three for me, and two for them.

The JourneyFan
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[/quote]

And who are the top 5 players in the world anyway?

[/quote]

Messi

Ronaldo

schweinsteiger

?

?

http://thejourneyfan.blogspot.co.nz/

New Zealand Football Media Association Website of the year 2015 & 2016

el grapadura
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Buffon II wrote:

el grapadura wrote:

Buffon II wrote:

Just as an aside, how many players have moved from La Liga to the Premier League recently and been a success? And vice versa.

Actually, the reality is that the Premier League, despite the cash, can't get the best players in the world to play there.

Of the best 5 players in the world right now, how many play in England? 

0.

That wasn't what i asked.

And who are the top 5 players in the world anyway?

Christ we could be here till sunrise at this rate 

The question you asked has no clear answer - players have gone both ways, and the rate of success going either way has been pretty similar, broadly speaking. What I was trying to highlight is that the best players in the Premier League tend to move to Spain, rather than the other way around.

el grapadura
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Buffon II wrote:

Tbh i was more getting at the likes of Las Palmas, Granada, Rayo, Almeira, Getafe etc.. for rolling over as opposed to Sevilla, Valencia and the like. The equivalents in England don't tend to do that, therefore leading to tougher fixtures, tougher competition, and a harder time dealing with squad rotation (can't wait for Pep to see all this first hand).

There's also a winter break in Spain.

But yes it is all subjective. Using the top 15-20% of teams who get to compete in European competition as a barometer for the strength of the whole league is too unbalanced imo.

Barcelona thumped Valencia 7-0 this past season (with Gary Neville in charge, who as a pundit, had used the exact same argument of 'teams just rolling over for the big guns in Spain'). He found out it's not quite that simple on the pitch. Using those results as a barometer isn't all that useful, since a side like Barcelona could just as easily thump a Crystal Palace, or Stoke, or Swansea by the same margin. But they won't get to play them in a meaningful game in our lifetime, so probably best to leave it there.

Kyle1502
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I always find these 'which league is better' discussions interesting. Its easy to say that the Premier League is weaker than La Liga because they don't get as many finalists in the UCL, and to say that the PL is more competitive because the games are closer (as in there aren't any 7 or 8 goal wins like what happens in LL) and it's a lot harder to predict the winner at the start of the season. But what we can't compare is how the lower teams in each league would do against each other. So we can really only say that the top teams of La Liga (and Bundesliga to an extent) are better than the top teams in the Premier League.

In terms of players, top players are always going to want to be playing alongside other top players, and move clubs accordingly (look at Bale and Suarez, both won player of the season in their last season in the PL, yet moved to La Liga to play alongside players of their ability). And because these leagues have 2-3 teams stacked with top players, there are always going to be players moving from the PL (who's top players are spread out over 5-6 teams) who want to move to the likes of Real Madrid, Barca, Bayern Munich etc so they can further themselves as a player and have a much better chance at winning trophies. 

From where I see it, there's no clear indicator as to which leagues are better, as their are too many variables between the leagues that differ (the likes of days between games and whether there is a midseason break), as well as the only games between the leagues are between the top in each league (in the CL and EL)), and there's no direct comparison between the mid-table teams or the teams fighting for survival.

el grapadura
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Kyle1502 wrote:

From where I see it, there's no clear indicator as to which leagues are better, as their are too many variables between the leagues that differ (the likes of days between games and whether there is a midseason break), as well as the only games between the leagues are between the top in each league (in the CL and EL)), and there's no direct comparison between the mid-table teams or the teams fighting for survival.

I always thought this was a red herring. The midwinter break in Spain is two weeks, it's not some mythical revitalising panacea that turns La Liga players into supermen. By the same token, the Premier League finishes earlier (generally by early May), which means longer break over the summer. It's really not much of an argument, unless you're looking for an excuse.

Like I said, it is subjective because there is no absolutely thoroughly objective method available to settle the argument, but when teams from the top half of one league consistently achieve better results in European competition than clubs from top half of another league over a number of years, it can't be simply dismissed as irrelevant in the discussion.

hepatitis
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Full time

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Bullion
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Buffon II wrote:

There's also a winter break in Spain.

But yes it is all subjective. Using the top 15-20% of teams who get to compete in European competition as a barometer for the strength of the whole league is too unbalanced imo.

They play just about as many games (possibly more because they are getting further in Europe :P) as their English counterparts. And currently the EPL is balanced but that just means the top teams are not very good at the moment - which is shown when they participate against other top teams from Europe. 

Leggy
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Interesting fact is that 25% of all the players at the Euro play in the EPL.

If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid

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