For those that didn't get it, in that anecdote NZ football is the Helicopter.
Shanter!!
All Whites vs Russia, Confederations Cup | Sun 18 June | 3am | St Petersburg | SS3
Might cost NZF a bit of money if Hudson gets sacked after this tournament. We're stuck with him now, he'll take us all down with him.
Chuck in Martin as well. Board that appointed them needs to be gone from the game forever.
Do we think this side is better than the 2010 one?
Yes we have better technical players, but do we what a better team. The 2010 side was defensively very sound and we had to good, combative midfielders and a big, strong forward line.
I'm wondering if half the angst here is less to do with Hudson and his team, and more to do with unfair expectations.
I wanted more, but are really capable of that much more, realistically??
There is so much that just doesn't make sense. Colvey looks scared of the ball playing against OFC teams - surely Roux is a better option. Durante is so slow in possession - he needs to get the ball moving even if it is a square pass which has got to be better than stopping, taking a few paces forward and humping it long. How on earth does anyone think We eMac, Marco & Thomas is a midfield?
Hudson has definitely been found out to be a complete fraud. We were blinded by the odd good performance in the last couple of years but if you compare what he says v what happens on the pitch it is now actually hilarious. As an example when Tuiloma came on v NI we looked much better yet he decides to stick with playing 3 of our best players out of position.Mexico now need 3 points against us so this will be embarrassing.
For all Rickis faults at least he created a formation to suit our players and their strengths.
It had become plain as day that the AW's are coached by somebody who doesn't have a clue during the build-up games before this tournament so for the first time in my life I'd not been looking forward to a NZ football side taking part in major tournament.
And the Russia game was just depressing.
Hudson's team selection and formation are just hopeless and what you'd expect from a guy who failed coaching in non-league football in England and has never coached at club level above that.
Zero qualifications to coach a national team in terms of earning the job by the hard graft of proving himself by coaching at club or national age group level as with most of our previous successful coaches like Adshead and Herbert.
It was evident from the Northern Ireland game and blindingly obvious after the Belarus shambles that the back three formation with wing-backs and some of the players chosen weren't up to it.
And yet Hudson persists with a dud like Colvey and fields the physically lightweight McGlinchey alone in central midfield when he could have included capable players like Tuiloma in midfield and Tzimopoulos in central defence.
This would have been a more effective line-up: 4 4 2:
Marinovic
Boxall Smith Tzimopoulos Wynne
Rojas McGlinchey Tuiloma Thomas
Wood Barbarouses
(Smeltz on as a sub late in games)
I hope Hudson gets the shove after the tournament and NZ football appoint the new technical director Andreas Heraf as interim coach with Ramon Tribulietx as his assistant.
Heraf is a much more competent coach - in charge of Austria's age group sides at every level since 2008, including in world cups and Euro tournaments, preceded by four years managing sides in the Austrian Bundesliga.
Big Pete cutting through the crap here. Good point about Heraf
Do we think this side is better than the 2010 one?
Yes we have better technical players, but do we what a better team. The 2010 side was defensively very sound and we had to good, combative midfielders and a big, strong forward line.
I'm wondering if half the angst here is less to do with Hudson and his team, and more to do with unfair expectations.
I wanted more, but are really capable of that much more, realistically??
Do we think this side is better than the 2010 one?
Yes we have better technical players, but do we what a better team. The 2010 side was defensively very sound and we had to good, combative midfielders and a big, strong forward line.
I'm wondering if half the angst here is less to do with Hudson and his team, and more to do with unfair expectations.
I wanted more, but are really capable of that much more, realistically??
Since 2010 we have competed at every level at tournaments (17s, 20s, Olympics) but our senior team looks completely hopeless. I know the stakes are different but I just don't see why this team cannot play better than this when we have good players. Yes we are a bit weak in central midfield defensively but why can't we string an attack together?
Do we think this side is better than the 2010 one?
Yes we have better technical players, but do we what a better team. The 2010 side was defensively very sound and we had to good, combative midfielders and a big, strong forward line.
I'm wondering if half the angst here is less to do with Hudson and his team, and more to do with unfair expectations.
I wanted more, but are really capable of that much more, realistically??
The tyrrany of low expectations
Yes we are a bit weak in central midfield defensively...
But do we need to be? Isn't that the part of point? With Themi and Tuiloma we have two what would appear competent options instead we are playing McGlinchey there. That alone should be a big red warning light.
The other thing that bothers me is at the U20s Vanuatu scored 2 goals against Mexico and 2 against Germany. We scored 3 against Honduras but failed against the other teams. We're not doing something right, even with the the funding we have compared to the other OFC member nations. Off topic I realise, the underlying theme is we don't seem to know how to score goals or create them.
The other thing that bothers me is at the U20s Vanuatu scored 2 goals against Mexico and 2 against Germany. We scored 3 against Honduras but failed against the other teams. We're not doing something right, even with the the funding we have compared to the other OFC member nations. Off topic I realise, the underlying theme is we don't seem to know how to score goals or create them.
It will be interesting to see how our 17s go in India under Danny, as the last 17s under him was apart from the opening French game, a much better performance in play and results than the 20s and AWs. Bazeley is seen as a puppet of Hudson, so the lack of goals and poor play can be seen as a mirror of what Hudson is doing with his squad. Time to move these negative influences on, and maybe move Danny up to next 20s?
Yes we are a bit weak in central midfield defensively...
But do we need to be? Isn't that the part of point? With Themi and Tuiloma we have two what would appear competent options instead we are playing McGlinchey there. That alone should be a big red warning light.
Tui or Themi next to WeeMac makes the most sense to me.
Anyway, the hope I had that we would kick on after those performances against USA and Mexico have all but dissipated. We look quite poor. I am not looking forward to getting stuffed by Mexico and Portugal.
Yes we are a bit weak in central midfield defensively...
But do we need to be? Isn't that the part of point? With Themi and Tuiloma we have two what would appear competent options instead we are playing McGlinchey there. That alone should be a big red warning light.
I think he's trying to get our best footballers on the park together, Themi in midfield would be pretty retrograde, but it's not working so he needs to change something
Yes we are a bit weak in central midfield defensively...
But do we need to be? Isn't that the part of point? With Themi and Tuiloma we have two what would appear competent options instead we are playing McGlinchey there. That alone should be a big red warning light.
I think he's trying to get our best footballers on the park together, Themi in midfield would be pretty retrograde, but it's not working so he needs to change something
Agree with this. Unfortunately the best 11 players does not include a quality DM. Themi though a useful find for AWs is old, slow and coming off an injury. Tuiloma has spent a season in French Div 4, Group D. There is 4 goups in that division, so talent must be pretty thinly spread, and I suspect pretty low quality. So to expect Tuiloma to go out and work miracles against likes of Ronnie, Nani & Co??? In fact I wonder if Tuiloma has turned up a bit unfit (by Hudson's standards anyway) being restricted to cameos, and not tracking back for that 2nd Russian goal.
Agree Hudson needs to change something, and he might as well try Themi or Tuiloma as a DM, what other options does he have? But not expecting much if any improvement. This side is unquestionably weaker than side of 2010, though being mostly young will improve. Again Reid is a massive loss, from those stateside friendlies last year.
Comparing performance of AWs to U20's is pointless. Our senior team would kill to have Honduras or Vietnam in their group at Confeds Cup. Plus many of the bigger football nations don't take the age group tourneys that seriously. Their young players get plenty of development at the big European clubs.
Yes we are a bit weak in central midfield defensively...
But do we need to be? Isn't that the part of point? With Themi and Tuiloma we have two what would appear competent options instead we are playing McGlinchey there. That alone should be a big red warning light.
I think he's trying to get our best footballers on the park together, Themi in midfield would be pretty retrograde, but it's not working so he needs to change something
Agree with this. Unfortunately the best 11 players does not include a quality DM.
I'm don't agree with that; Colvey, Wynne and Durante all started on Sunday and I'm not sure any of them are better than Tuiloma and Themi. If I were to fit the best 11 players in the current squad into a formation it would probably look something like this:
Wood
Rojas Thomas . Barbarouses
Tzimopoulos . McGlinchey
Tuiloma . Smith . Durante Boxall
Marinovic
You don't pick your ' best '11 players as they probably won't fit into the formation etc.
You go for the ones that will be best in the position that you are picking.
Yipe agree Hudson has got to make some changes. Might as well plumb for Tuiloma and/or Themi but again don't see much chance of any large improvement. Hope I'm wrong. Of course we all hope for better from AWs.
Just caught highlights of Socceroos v Germany (B). Australia has a high class midfield of Milligan, Mooy, Luongo & Rogic - yet they were still easily outplayed by the Germans in first half. Did better in 2nd spell.
Compared to other teams at Confeds Cup we are woefully weak in midfield - so need some realistic expectations.
Yes we are a bit weak in central midfield defensively...
But do we need to be? Isn't that the part of point? With Themi and Tuiloma we have two what would appear competent options instead we are playing McGlinchey there. That alone should be a big red warning light.
I think he's trying to get our best footballers on the park together, Themi in midfield would be pretty retrograde, but it's not working so he needs to change something
How about that Moses Dyer chap?
Probably a better defensive midfielder than Marco Rojas
Yes we are a bit weak in central midfield defensively...
But do we need to be? Isn't that the part of point? With Themi and Tuiloma we have two what would appear competent options instead we are playing McGlinchey there. That alone should be a big red warning light.
I think he's trying to get our best footballers on the park together, Themi in midfield would be pretty retrograde, but it's not working so he needs to change something
See 2010 World Cup
Probably a better defensive midfielder than Marco Rojas
It's a good thing Marco hasn't been playing in defensive midfield then, innit.
It would be nice if someone did.
Yes we are a bit weak in central midfield defensively...
But do we need to be? Isn't that the part of point? With Themi and Tuiloma we have two what would appear competent options instead we are playing McGlinchey there. That alone should be a big red warning light.
I think he's trying to get our best footballers on the park together, Themi in midfield would be pretty retrograde, but it's not working so he needs to change something
See 2010 World Cup
Bertos. I imagine playing with three centre forwards and no wingers was somewhat difficult to adapt to.
Well we pretty much picked a formation that suited our best 11 players. Even though that formation wasn't really in vogue back then.
Did Herbert convert Vicelich from a CB to DM, or was that earlier in his career?
Did Herbert convert Vicelich from a CB to DM, or was that earlier in his career?
I think so. At confeds in France Nelson and Hay were the main men at CB so Ivan was moved forward. I recall him after v Colombia saying how utterly knackered he felt as a result. Plus the long season in Holland I guess.
I thought Vicelich played at DM in Holland quite a bit in his early days there?
Anyway, there's a difference between getting our best 11 on the pitch in 2010 and our best 11 on the pitch in 2017, and that's that in 2010 you could have a coherent formation and tactics from it because of the balance of players but today we don't have that balance - too many wingers, not enough DMs or CMs. I also don't think this is our best 11 players. Themi and Tuiloma are better than Colvey and Wynne for a start. Gleeson is better than Marinovic.
I also think that in Hudson's mind this formation isn't a 5-3-2, it's a Bielsa -style 3-3-3-1. Except Bielsa plays a high line and relentless pressing so the effective playing area is reduced, and then his players have the technical skills to keep possession and create chances in a smaller area. Our defensive line is deep because our CBs are too slow, we don't really keep up sustained pressing, and we aren't technically adept enough to play a quick short passing game so in effect it's a 5-3-2 with long balls, because the two wingers drop into central midfield to help out and the AM becomes a second striker trying to play off the scraps of the ball hoofed to Wood. What that does explain though is Hudson's call to play Rojas and Thomas in CM - for him they're not CMs in a 5-3-2, they're wingers in a 3-3-3-1.
I thought Vicelich played at DM in Holland quite a bit in his early days there?
Yeah he did. From memory he also played mainly in the midfield for Waitakere and the Kingz.
I thought Vicelich played at DM in Holland quite a bit in his early days there?
Yeah he did. From memory he also played mainly in the midfield for Waitakere and the Kingz.
He's listed as a DF in Roda's 2003 squad on their website.
He was mainly at left back when at Central, and played left back at Confeds in 1999. The Rufers moved him into midfield at the Kingz, and his move to Roda was in that position. At times over there he played even further forward in midfield (I was lucky enough to see him score a hattrick v Den Haag as attacking mid!!) and only reverted back into defence when he came back to NZ and Auckland City. He was part of the back 3 v Bahrain (with Nelsen and Sigmund), only went back into midfield for the World Cup.
I think.
I thought Vicelich played at DM in Holland quite a bit in his early days there?
Anyway, there's a difference between getting our best 11 on the pitch in 2010 and our best 11 on the pitch in 2017, and that's that in 2010 you could have a coherent formation and tactics from it because of the balance of players but today we don't have that balance - too many wingers, not enough DMs or CMs. I also don't think this is our best 11 players. Themi and Tuiloma are better than Colvey and Wynne for a start. Gleeson is better than Marinovic.
I thought Vicelich played at DM in Holland quite a bit in his early days there?
Anyway, there's a difference between getting our best 11 on the pitch in 2010 and our best 11 on the pitch in 2017, and that's that in 2010 you could have a coherent formation and tactics from it because of the balance of players but today we don't have that balance - too many wingers, not enough DMs or CMs. I also don't think this is our best 11 players. Themi and Tuiloma are better than Colvey and Wynne for a start. Gleeson is better than Marinovic.
I thought Vicelich played at DM in Holland quite a bit in his early days there?
Anyway, there's a difference between getting our best 11 on the pitch in 2010 and our best 11 on the pitch in 2017, and that's that in 2010 you could have a coherent formation and tactics from it because of the balance of players but today we don't have that balance - too many wingers, not enough DMs or CMs. I also don't think this is our best 11 players. Themi and Tuiloma are better than Colvey and Wynne for a start. Gleeson is better than Marinovic.
I thought Vicelich played at DM in Holland quite a bit in his early days there?
Anyway, there's a difference between getting our best 11 on the pitch in 2010 and our best 11 on the pitch in 2017, and that's that in 2010 you could have a coherent formation and tactics from it because of the balance of players but today we don't have that balance - too many wingers, not enough DMs or CMs. I also don't think this is our best 11 players. Themi and Tuiloma are better than Colvey and Wynne for a start. Gleeson is better than Marinovic.
Kosta played at wingback in one of Hudson's early friendlies. Was not pretty. I think Bertos had a better-suited physicality and skill-set.
Do we think this side is better than the 2010 one?
Yes we have better technical players, but do we what a better team. The 2010 side was defensively very sound and we had to good, combative midfielders and a big, strong forward line.
I'm wondering if half the angst here is less to do with Hudson and his team, and more to do with unfair expectations.
I wanted more, but are really capable of that much more, realistically??
The more relevant point of comparison if you're talking about the Confederations Cup, is with our 2009 Confederations Cup side:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_FIFA_Confederat...
That I would argue was in many respects weaker than the current squad.
The starting eleven (except for a couple) hadn't played at any great level or distinction - anyone for a backline of Mulligan, Boyens, Vicelich and Lochhead (with Aaron Scott also sometimes starting)?
Don't forget that Reid, Fallon, Smith and McGlinchey weren't there as they hadn't yet opted to play for NZ.
Ryan Nelsen was out injured.
In midfield or on the wings, the current Thomas and Rojas are more exciting than Bertos or Brockie were in 2009.
Chris Wood was only 17 and a bit part player for NZ coming off his first season in West Brom's youth team (the previous year he'd been at Waikato FC - only five appearances for them).
Chris Killen was a capable enough striker in League One with Oldham and the SPL with Hibs (one excellent season) and Celtic but not as talented as Chris Wood currently is.
The only aspect which was arguably stronger was in defensive midfield options with Simon Elliott present (although Elliott was then already 35 and coming off two injury-ruined seasons with Fulham) - note that Herbert was using Vicelich as a central defender at the Confeds.
The squad contained players of limited ability who played at only a modest (and in some cases brief) level professionally or remained amateurs like Old, Bright, Jarrod Smith, Boyens, Mulligan, Christie, Barron, Aaron Scott.
There were five amateurs in the squad.
All our line-ups, formations and results here for each game in 2009 (first class effort stats wise):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_FIFA_Confederat...
This was the line-up for our opening match in 2009 vs. Spain:
Paston
Mulligan Vicelich Boyens Lochhead
Brockie Brown Elliott Bertos
Smeltz Killen
(subs used: Christie, James, Bright)
I remember us not being too embarrassing in that tournament considering the limited squad. Losing 5-0 to Spain, although we were well outclassed, was considered no big deal considering Spain were the best side in the world at the time.
We had played well in scoring three goals against Italy in a warm-up match (a very entertaining 3-4 loss in which NZ lead a few times) a week before the tournament. Italy were forced to put on their best players in the second half to secure a win.
We drew with Asian champions Iraq who had a good side back then which only lost 1-0 to Spain (the only goal they conceded in the tournament) and which drew with South Africa.
NZ fielded the same back four against South Africa in the next game (0-2 loss).
Christie started instead of Brockie in midfield.
Smeltz and Killen remained up front.
Wood made his competitive debut for NZ as a 75th minute sub. Oughton and James also came on in the second half.
vs. Iraq (0-0 draw):
Back four: Sigmund and Aaron Scott started instead of Boyens and Mulligan.
Midfield: Brockie Brown Elliott Bertos
Strikers: Smetlz, Killen
Second half subs used: Christie, Boyens , Mulligan
Brockie, Brown, Elliot, Bertos is a much better midfield than the one we have got.
I think that tournament finished Boyens international career?
And the formation played is a solid one considering we would in most cases be worse man for man than the opposition. With the exception of Elliot, the midfield were capable of getting up and down and defending stoutly as well as attacking.
Be interesting to open up that old thread and see what we thought then!