All Whites vs New Caledonia | Tues 15 Nov | 7:00pm | SS2

Are you really advocating that we should persist with circle of mediocrity? 

I don't mean that we only pick our best players, I mean you build a system that makes it work with our best players. Right now we're not doing either, we're not playing a specific system, and we're not playing our best players.

But, as said above, the last time we got to the world cup it was with a system that was designed to get our best players on the pitch and also play to their talents.

I kinda feel that Hudson is trying to play to our strengths. We are still stronger at CB and weaker in midfield, hence a similar-ish formation that Ricki played. Just that Ricki played with 6 footers in the front 3, Hudson only 1 but still hoofing it long.

Also, different federation (you're more likely to get guest refs from Asia); but what about opportunities in SSP or Chatham Cup games?

this is a much better idea. Would love to see this happen. $$$ being the limiting factor again, unfortunately.

But the thing that has perplexed us all from the start is the playing of amateur players in place of professionals, and players that aren't even regulars at the highest level of the game domestically at that. So we're not playing a formation to suit our best team because we're not playing our best team, and we're not playing a specific formation regardless of players available because it changes. 

We're doing neither.

ricki's long balls were played from specific areas of the pitch on an angle to specific areas of the pitch to one of 2 targets for the other 2 (always smeltz, plus whoever wasn't the initial target) to run on to

i was actually disappointed when ricki started going shorter because we didn't look dangerous any more and over time, the team lost it's way

personally, i'd call ricki's long balls 'direct' and anfony's a 'hoof'. i do not recall one of these hoofs working apart from one time in the first game when kosta hit the post

Yeah agree. Nothing wrong in being direct (even passing sides have to do it to stop the opposition backs from pressing too high). There's a big difference between playing direct balls for flicks ons and hoofing it anywhere. If we are going to play a direct style because we cannot transition due to a lack of midfield I could accept that if the alternative was deliberate passing to a target man rather than aimless hacking of the ball as the kids don't want to be caught in possession. 

There are some pretty impressive posts in his thread. 

In relation to the conundrum about picking your best players and finding a system to fit it, I think we all acknowledge Hudson will need to do this to a degree but that doesn't mean playing guys like Rojas and Thomas so far out of position that they become ineffective.  They are not central midfielders. 

If we don't actually play guys who can win the ball, ride a challenge and distribute in the middle (guys like Bill, Riera) then we'll never be able to transition and will be forced to play direct to Wood for knock downs to Kosta and Rojas etc. 

I actually think (hope!) the NCL games were a reality check for Hudson. If you look at the Mexico and USA games we were really good without the ball but I don't actually think we were as good as everyone is making out when we had the ball. Accordingly I wasnt surprised that we didn't play NCL off the park with a slick passing game as we haven't actually demonstrated that. 

As far as team selection goes I don't rate Patterson as he plays like a u18s player- someone needs to tell him to lift his head and that dribbling or going solo is a secondary option to looking for a quick pass. I hope Wood gave him a rocket as he was too selfish. We have all missed sitters so I don't actually have any major issues with that- it's his awareness that is lacking.

The same goes for the other kids. Lewis was atrocious on Saturday. He seems like a good found player but he was hacking the all in every direction on Saturday. He has a good workrate but doesn't have awareness to take a touch. I don't expect a player like him to control the tempo of the game in midfield as it's not his game but he just isnt international standard.

I put Dyer in the same camp as Lewis. Has potential but is not and will it be ready in 12 months for a WCQ. 

Hudson needs to look at Riera. If Hudson can't see he has no midfield then we are poked. I haven't heard a post NCL interview with him yet- is there one floating about? Anyway I hope he realises he got the selection wrong and talk to Albert. 

We also need Roux in the team. I want at the game on Saturday and was very unimpressed by Graham. He is not a wing back. Roux fits the 5-3-2 system perfectly. He is just so good at proving an option to get in behind opposition defences. 

I also think Watson is worth a look. Would like to see him get a decent run at the Nix but I think he's your back up number 9. Sorry Fallon.

Durante looked good in both games. So good to have him in a back 3. 

Lots to think about. Hopefully Riera,  Roux and Winston turn up for the next WCQ. 

The 2010 team had Elliott and Vicelich in midfield. We don't have one CM as good as either as those guys now, let alone 2 of them. Elliott played in the EPL and could drop a ball on a dime from 40 yards. Playing long balls looks a lot more purposeful if you have someone with that kind of passing range. Ivan had a long career in the Eredivisie when the quality of it was better too, and was great at the disruptive DM play, as well as being a tidy distributor himself. because of those 2 Ricki could get away with playing only 2 in central midfield which meant he could put another man upfront, which gave an extra outlet for the long balls. Hudson doesn't have that luxury. Having said that, there's no excuse for playing wingers as CMs, or picking Dyer or Lewis over professionals like James, Keat, or Ridenton

Waiting for joe bell and singh to come of age

I agree with this especially for the US game where I think apart from the first 15 minutes we were pretty much out played and out passed.

We are also a very young team and we do look like it at times.  Not a lot of foot on the ball stuff, it can be a bit headless chickens running round.

We really lack a midfielder that can dictate the tempo as you point out.  I think he does have to try some of these other guys cause that set up didn't look right either on Saturday or Tuesday 

I feel like there is a lot of underestimation of Melanesian players here - sure they aren't very technical, but they more than make up for this by the whole team being very fast, very fit and very strong. Every time an NZ player recieved the ball they were swarmed by NCL, and this wasn't just an occasional tactical press but constantly applied pressure and a very real threat of being taken out by a terrible tackle. They are also almost all amateurs with nothing to lose, and don't really respect New Zealand at all. NCL cannot, however, play expansively (short passes and quick feet are one thing, but most longer passes went astray) and struggle to really threaten any defensive structure.

The Melanesian teams are like this at all levels (I've seen a few club games in Vanuatu and PNG), at that is why NZ struggle against them at age group level as well. It's not like you can watch years of video footage to study how they play either; they don't play the sort of football that coaches and players are trained or prepared for. 

Given the recent focus in Fiji on foreign coaching, I think we'll find that Fiji will try and play a more refined or typical style of football and NZ will look a lot better against them. There's not a lot to be gained in lengthy angst or analysis from games against these Melanesian teams.

Direct football... did I read somewhere that the biggest majority of goals scored in the EPL, or maybe some other league, was after 3 passes in the attacking half of the pitch.

I guess that is either direct or counter attacking style.  

We don't play direct, or counter attack. We play hoof ball sharke.

Not necessarily - you could string 30 passes together, lose the ball, win it back and score in 3 passes. Stats like that are also skewed by all sorts of factors- teams getting exposed at the back late in games they are losing, for instance, or the fact that passing teams will have goals scored after a wider range of number of passes (think 10,11,12,13,14 passes etc) than teams playing long ball who will only ever make a handful of passes before they shoot or lose possession. So yeah more goals might be scored after 3 passes than any other number of passes but that isn't necessarily evidence that direct football is more effective.

Are you Tony Smith?

Good opinion piece in yesterday's Press here in Christchurch by Tony makes the same points as you:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/nz-teams/865...

Hope that Hudson reads it.

The kind of mediocre coaching we're seeing from Hudson is what you'd expect from a guy who has minimal coaching experience.

Should be working as an assistant to a more experienced capable coach.

Our only hope is that an experienced, capable local is brought in to "assist" Hudson (select the players etc.) but it ain't going to happen.

We're doomed!

Ha. No Pete but, having read that,  I agree with him! 

DJTim I don't get why you say you can't read too much info or take much from games against Melanesian sides. Sure they play differently but so do South American and European sides etc.

I think what people are annoyed about are the things in our control- accepting that the travel, conditions and opposition are somewhat factors we cannot control. 

For me  who we are playing against is irrelevant when we are picking kids in key midfield roles who are too inexperienced to take a touch, change the pace of a game, respond to what is happening around them etc. Added to that we are playing wingers as CMs and full backs as wing backs. 

Ricky actually had the players to play the 5-3-2 shape as, per above, he had Elliot and Ivan to sit in the middle, hold the ball and find the feet or head of the strikers with a measured pass or long ball. Ok they were slow but we don't get played through like the island teams have done to us without Winston. What we are seeing as a result of having kids in these roles is chaos theory - the ball is pinging around like pinball. 

I actually think Durante, Smith and Boxall/Themi are fine at the back- we should seriously look at Reid for a CM role. He's calm, quick, physical and a good foil for Tui. Or, like I said, Riera also offers that experience. 

I got to speak to Ricki and BT a few days after the 2010 win against Bahrain and asked him about what they were doing. He told me it was 343 and defensively it became 541

Because we saw how the team performs against 'footballing' sides - and it was promising. All the crazy angst and bi-polar supporters seem to be a little misguided, in my opinion. You've gone so far as to suggest Reid plays in the midfield, in the same post that you imply Ricki shouldn't have been playing players out of position. That's how crazy it has got.

I can understand the on the surface craziness of playing youngsters. In New Zealand players that are promising but don't have a place in a professional setup don't get a lot of opportunity to play at a high level, what better to give them experience than a real international against a team that is not supposed to be that good? I think the physicality of the Melanesian teams was underestimated by Hudson, but he certainly seems to be playing the long game in terms of the national side, and that I can appreciate.

mate if we don't have Albert in the squad then I'd prefer playing Reid or someone with some presence in CM (Themi does it for his club) than 60kg wingers. Obviously, per my post, I'd prefer playing regular CMs at club level at CM for their country (ie Bill, Reira and TAHW- who I think is the most promising of the youngsters). So I think calling the posts on here crazy is a bit misguided. 

One thing I agree with you on is Hudson underestimating the physicality of the island teams. I hope he learns from this and again - that's a reason  I suggested playing Reid there if Riera isn't available. Wee Mac did well against the US but is not going to break up the play and win much ball. You need physical presence there. Not kids. We have a WCQ in less than 365 days- not enough time to play "the long game" as you suggest. 

Hudson always talks about being "strong, organised" etc - he doesn't follow this through with selections. Ricky (despite his obvious tactical limitations) picked a spine that was strong (Nelson, Elliot, Killen and Smeltz). Hudson has Wood - big gap- Reid and some useful defenders. 

There were a lot of people that got caught up in the hype of the US tour. We were excellent off the ball with the "pressing" etc (such an over used term now). But we were still average playing through the thirds and relied on winning the ball high up. It seems as though if Pine, Goirdie and co tweet that the All Whites were great or get a result against "footballing sides" -as you call them that people get on the bandwagon. 

So I don't think I or the other guys on here objectively analysing the game and pointing out that it was an average performance are crazy; just people who don't believe what they are spoon feed by the media.  

How come, when it comes to the AW's we always end up with a bunch of excuses? "the island teams are tough to play against"... "the conditions are tough to handle"

FFS  if we have any pretension of being a (semi) serious footballing nation then these excuses for mediocre performances have got to go. What about if they change the Oceania WC qualifying route one day and we go in a play in Asia in the pool playoffs? We will be expected to front up in various conditions against teams with a big differences in playing styles. Australia has just played Thailand in Bangkok.....and anyone who has been there knows it was probably 35 degrees and 100% humidity. We would be playing in freezing conditions in sth Korea or in Uzbekistan in winter. Thats what serious football teams have to put up with.

The conditions in the Islands should be well familiar to us now....we have played there often enough at national level plus plenty of our players have experiance there at Oceania championship level. 

The problem as I see it is we play great, back to the wall, park the bus football against name sides but we completely fail to boss games against teams that are at best, equal or worse than us. So is this part of our football psyc? do we always play the underdog role? when was the last time an AW team took a side apart? How many goals have the AW's scored since Hudson came aboard, considering that the majority of these games would be against sides lower than us on the FIFA rankings? why do talented guys like Wood, Thomas, Rojas etc who are doing the business for their pro teams look so average in a All White shirt?

I personally think the angst has gone over the top.   

Was the style of play and performance disappointing?  Absolutely.  Was the result?  No - we still 'control our own destiny' and a couple of decent performances against Fiji will get us through to the next stage. This is World Cup Qualifying and the main thing is to progress.

I think we need to give more credit to these Island teams.  We don't have an inherent right to simply turn up to beat them.  Others have said here that Australia would beat these guys 7-0.  From what I read Australia were lucky to get a draw against Thailand the other day.  That was Thailand's first point in qualifying in their 5 group games to date (and are ranked at 146, only 20 ahead of New Caledonia).   

I also think we may rate our players higher than what they actually are.  The post above talks about Wood, Rojas & Thomas.  All definitely talented, but Wood was getting booed for most of the early season by Leeds fans until he started putting some away; Rojas failed in Europe and may never make it back again; Thomas - I admit I don't know much about him and it maybe unfair for me to judge given he is coming back from long term injury.

Finally, talk of playing Reid in CM is very strange to me, when keeping clean sheets against Fiji will in all likelihood will get us through (I'm hoping we will score 1 goal in 180mins).  And this discussion about Albert should be mute until he comes out and says he wants to be an All White.

Absolutely spot on, Reid provides the strength and leadership needed at CB, and Riera is not the solution for DM to transition from the back through the midfield, and the young players arent the solution. Wood , Thomas and Rojas can deliver upfront.

Didn't Albert say it here?:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/all-whites/news/article....

Few random thoughts after getting back from New Caledonia.

• Not sure we didn't find out anything more from these two games. Disappointing not to be able to translate the performance against Mexico and the US into this window. But think we need to consider that Mexico and the US only played one and four players respectively that also played in their first Hex game. We definitely played both sides B teams. More disappointed that the high press style disappeared in the Auckland where the conditions are favourable. 
• We really need to find a style that suits Island away games. Because conditions are tough. I've been to New Caledonia and Solomon Islands are it really is repressive. And that was just from walking around. No doubt your technique, decisions making, and work rate suffers. Can't imagine what it would be like trying to play competitive sport. With a 3 day turn around, it's impossible to acclimatise and will something that will effect us given our weather patterns here. 
• Having said that, surprised we had so many changes, especially with the number of novice players. Would have thought a couple of changes would have been expected. Start with a strongest side and roll through some some subs when needed. Hindsight is 20/20 I supposed. I bumped into Dura after the game and he said he was feeling pretty leggy during that game. And while our fitness should be superior, recovery is limited for both sides given the travel, but New Caledonia would be more comfortable in the conditions for the second game. So you'd think the gap between the sides should narrow somewhat.
• Not surprised that New Caledonia pushed us some much. In fact I picked up some decent happiness insurance. They are a decent side with a couple of professional players, and since they begun trying to qualify for WCs in 2006 they have always been strong. We've never won by more than 2 goals. It seems other island nations who have historically been our strongest competitors (Solomon's, Fiji) had stagnated, New Caledonia have improved. And driving through the country there was definitely signs of good football facilities. And Noumea seems to be very well developed with a lot of money coming in from tourism. 
• With all that, I think the days of blow outs really are over. No doubt we should qualify everytime, but I'd expect us to struggle during away games.

You can't compare Thailand with New Caledonia. Thailand has a population of 65 million while NC just 250000. Thailand also has a professional football league and their national team plays regularly against decent oposition. Some times we forget how poor the Islands nations are because they only play each other and NZ every two or three years. For example, PNG have beaten Malaysia at home, same as NC, but in Malaysia they lost and got thrashed by Iran 8-1. In 2014 PNG lst 4-0 to the Philippines, a team that hasn't  qualified for the last stage of the AFC WCQ, same as Malaysia. Using FIFA rankings to try comparing different countries is ridiculous, knowing hoe they are made. So yes, Australia would have thrashed NC.

Having said that, I don't think that comparision should be made at all. Australia is way better than us, they play regularly against good oposition, they have a professional league and have a larger population. But still, the AW should be beating these teams, I'm not saying easily, but for FFS how is it than a proven Championship goalscorer can't score against the AS Lossi GK not even once. Enough with the excuses, if we can't beat these teams how are we supposed to at least get a draw in the Confederations Cup

What was mentioned was that Australia was beating the island teams 7-0 when they were in the OFC and couldn't qualify for the world cup. It wasn't a comparison between Australia and New Zealand, that wouldn't make any sense.

I think we are short of genuine goal scorers. You look at Kosta's brilliant touch to bring the ball down  against NC, but then the finish was not there and far from instinctive. I think we need a couple more. I don't know who, maybe Watson and Smeltz? Patterson hasn't lived up to his billing striker wise so far, unfortunately, because I've always rated him. 

And yes, I remember teams with Killen, Smeltz, Fallon, Wood etc etc who struggled against island teams too...

To that I'm going to add Uruguay. Get a small country with enough good players. China has a few people, a professional league and some decent opposition too...the football culture is important and to be honest I've been entertained by the New Caledonia sides a lot more than any other in qualification, and I know of and respect Betrand Kai (leaving out his behaviour last game)

I agree - Thailand should be better than New Caledonia based on what you say and that the FIFA rankings are a bit of a joke.  In saying that, I don't think the gap between the top Island teams & some of these Asian nations we're talking about is as big as we may think,especially when playing in the Islands.  We therefore shouldn't think that we can simply turn up to beat them, recent history suggests that isn't the case.  

At the end of the day we are still on track to qualify for the next stage, which is all I care about.  The Confed's Cup is next years issue and hopefully NZF can get our team some friendlies sorted in the lead up to it.   

Sorry - hadn't seen that article with Reira talking about possibly being an All White.  Had thought most of the speculation came from that opinion piece by Tony Smith. 

Still, Uruguay is a country where everyone play football. In either NC and Thailand that's not the case. I'm not saying countries with bigger population will always be better but the gap between Thailand and NC is abysmal

what do they play in new Caledonia?

I think cricket is very popular, not sure if it is the most popular sport but that would be enough difference with Uruguay

?????

New Caledonia is a French-speaking country, you know.

I'd be surprised if the number one sport by a mile is not football followed by rugby.

I have been several times in Uruguay and every person I've met plays football. I doubt that's the case in NC even if it is the most popular sport. That was what I meant, the difference between a football-mad country and a one that's not

http://resources.fifa.com/mm/document/fifafacts/bc...

The big count by FIFA gives the number of registered football players by association. In Uruguay 7.03% of people play football compared to 4.47% in NC.

Vanuatu appears to be the most football mad country in OFC. 13.12% play football.

Other interesting things in there 

4.88% of New Zealanders play foorball

8.2% of yanks play football

Costa Rica tops the list with 26.61% 

There are over 20million football players in India and 26million in China

So who is then? We need two CMs and Tuiloma is probably the only person playing that position for his club. And in the reserves no less.    Hudson has to realise we need a physical presence and players who dont panic and hack the ball whenever it comes to them or dive in rather than hold up when they are counter attacking (a reference to Dyer).

I'm only suggesting Reid plays in front of the back 3 as a DM because, relatively speaking, with Dura, Smith, Boxall and Themi we are well stocked at the back and, while not his usual position a player of his class, speed, calmness and strength will do a better job than any of the amateur CMs. It's far from ideal but then so is our midfield. If Reid's is available his selection is a no brainer. 

The concern on here isn't about beating Fiji and getting to the playoff.  That's not the aim. We want to qualify for the World Cup and to do that we need to beat the 5th best South American side. 

We can make all the excuses we want about the away game but the Auckland game was poor too and that was the first game in our conditions so no excuses. 

The comparisons with Aussie and Thailand in a one off game are meaningless - most of the comments on here are being fuelled not by just one game but by the OFC Nations Cup and these qualies. 

I'd like to see 4-2-3-1:

GK

ROUX REID SMITH DOYLE

TUILOMA THEMI

KOSTA ROJAS THOMAS

WOOD

SUBS: RGK, boxall, weemac, smeltz, rufer (ahead of ridenton/howieson/h-wihongi)

Boxall covers CB/RB

Tuiloma covers RB/LB

Themi covers CB 

Smith covers LB

Weemac covers DM and wide mid

Smeltz covers CF

10 is the problem 

Not sure Marco is a natural 10

Rufer next best 10 (and wide forward cover); whereas ridenton, h-wihongi, howieson are really only suited to DM cover. 

Definitely time to forget the kids/projects and those yet to experience a pro environment - as none of them have shown enough. 

Just wish Hudson would play this formation as it is natural for all of the players and I'd like him to stick with it from now until the end.