$40-45 Million Soccer Specific Stadium - Petone Phoenix

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Surge
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Can I have some lungs please miss
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over 16 years
Quintinh wrote:
To answer some questions from earlier in this thread…. What
makes the Christchurch stadium temporary? The scaffolding and the seats which
are leased and not owned by the stadium amongst other things… Average stadium
construction costs are around $4000 - $6000 per seat at the moment, so a 15,000
seat stadium for the phoenix would cost $60M to $90M, and of course the sky is
the limit if you want to add all the bells and whistles.
The temporary reference is often about Canterbury Rugby using it temporarily... once the new Cantab stadium is build they will go there... Addington will go back to what it was previously (not a lot).
Appiah without the pace
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Tegal wrote:

Its interesting that the Phoenix get bumped from their timeslot at the stadium around the same time that there is talk of building a second smaller stadium. 

Not really. Is a Fox request.

Tegal
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Woops. Didn't mean it as a conspiracy. Only that its kind of funny that we are talking about building a smaller stadium, then the nix get bumped - and there is a 'need' for 2 stadiums on that day. 

WeeNix
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james dean wrote:
Tegal wrote:

Its strange. To begin with I thought the idea was insane. But the more I think about it the more I think there is a potential gap in the market for a smaller stadium along with other complexes surrounding it. 

Ideally this would be in Wellington, near the stadium. But that it ends up in petone isn't all that far fetched either. 

Or maybe I'm going insane. 



I would look at the likelihood of this right now as zero


- wgtn city council and regional council own/run the stadium.  No chance they will pay for another stadium to compete with it and they would oppose it strongly as stadium would/could become a white elephant


- that leaves Hutt City council funding it.  Likelihood of Hutt council funding it without regional council money or central govt - let's be generous and say 25% 


- likelihood of a "super council" in the next 5 years, probably 60/40.  If that happens then likelihood goes back to zero.


I just don't see any real chance of this happening (although I am not as pessimistic about Petone as a location as others are).  


The only solution is the stadium, it's the wrong facility in the right place.  The current arrangements aren't working for the major tenants which are the Phoenix, Super Rugby and NPC.  So there needs to be changes made - altering the design may be expensive but so is a new stadium!  Maybe that's what needs to happen because what we have right now doesn't work at all.  Mixed use stadiums were one of the worst ideas ever


I wonder if there has ever been any serious investigation into options for a seating re-organisation at Westpac? Perhaps some form of temporary seating set up for rectangular field games that can be pulled out for the infrequent international cricket matches? would the cost be any more than building a new stadium as you say JD. With the bonus of keeping the great location. 
Otherwise could a small rectangular stadium be built close to the existing stadium if there is any available land around there?
Coming from Lower Hutt myself I'm not opposed to the idea of a Petone stadium. But Westpac's location near the central railway station is probably it's best feature.
Marquee
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Lonegunmen wrote:
ForteanTimes wrote:
asmodeus_82 wrote:
2ndBest wrote:

The problem with the food/drink is that Spotless has a monopoly. No competition so value declines.

Well Fritz and the Donuts aren't Spotless so not quite a monopoly but your point still stands. The sort of industrial scale catering that Spotless does is quite expensive and really requires those kind of prices. Smaller market type stands could probably provide cheaper and more varied goods to your standard Phoenix game but would be completely insufficient for an All Blacks game or the 7s and events of that scale. Caravans or even independents using the Spotless facilities would really struggle to cater to a 20k+ event or even a 15k.

It would be cool to see a greater variety of things like Fritz around the stadium, a little more variety would be nice.



Having worked on the hospitality/catering side of things at some large events such as festivals and big commercial fairs/shows where 20k is a drop in the ocean. You'd be surprised how easily a bunch of small independent caters can quite happily accommodate those sorts of figures.

You probably only have to cater for around 6000- 8000 for food max, if that. The vast majority is getting beverages out - which is not rocket science.

All you have to do is offer each stand as a pitch and just come up with a price and lease it out for the season.

You only can serve so many due to space and time, (hmm sounds a bit Dr Who that). So what is the difference of having a kitchen manned by 6 Spotless employees or 6 independent? You are saying that that the local Curry houses, Chinese, Chippies, Outside Caterers with a few household names such as BK and Macca's could not come up with a better service than Spotless? 

What Spotless do well at are Hospitals, Prisons, Nursing homes where they offer the whole package of providing food, linen and cleaning. Going to a live event is about enjoyment and the whole experience - good food contributes to that.  Good food is not Spotless strong point. Their food is cheap, basic, but does the job.

I think whoever signed Spotless up missed the whole point of catering at a live event. Sure it's easier for the Stadium to just have to deal with one firm but you are dealing with paying customers who expect something decent, not inmates or patients who don't pay for the food and therefore have very little say in what they get to eat.

If the stadium do see us as a captive audience, that will accept any old crap, then they deserve to have poor attendance they are currently getting.



Never thought I'd disagree with you but in the case of Spotless, it has to be said. They do a shit job at the prisons and have done so so consistantly they the staff have renamed them "Pointless" because that is what they are. Thank God theyare I ly doing the maintenance and not the catering.


Parking and access to Petone from anywhere is dead easy and plentiful but I cant see Petone being the choice. If people from the coast came over by car they'd have no problems but by train or bus is a deterant. Where the games are now, its not hard to get to and yet still people living in and around Wellington directly are still not attending. There are a fair few from the hutt, Upper Hutt Wwainui, Waiarapa, Hawkes Bay etc that actually make the effort.


Let's be honest here, the stadium was built partially with a successful Blackcraps in mind and dreaming of sellout attendances following them. Since day one there have rarely been Cricket sell outs. But there have been Rugby sellouts and football sell outs and even League sell outs and all three codes would have benefited from a square stadium and a closeness of fans like they are down in Dunedin. The mayor at the time whom pushed hard for the stadium (Something which I felt we needed too) and at a central position but I think the Westpac stadium trust etc backed the wrong horse. That being cricket.



When I say "do well" I mean they are very cheap and they do what is says on the tin and they do this at a very basic level. OK the end product is not great, (although I'd argue some of their domestic service is pretty good these days - compared to 4 years ago), but if you want a service without the hassles of having to provide it yourself then call Spotless.

My biggest concern is that when they get a contract they get complete control over everything they have to deal with and that means no competition. They never have to raise their game because they are the only game in town. 

To my mind affordable quality should be what you are trying to provide in a venue that is there to provide entertainment.

Blame whoever took the unimaginative and easy option of giving Spotless the contract in the first place.

Re-seating/venues I think at present, (until football grows),  the only option is some sort of retro-fit  at the Stadium that brings the crowd closer to the play.
Trialist
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about 14 years

Apologies if this has been covered earlier in the thread but I got bored after page 4 (short attention span)

If a new venue is built the smarts would also make it a gig venue - we lack a decent mid rage (10 to 20k) venue for events. This MAY attract additional funding and make a stadium of that size more viable. Issue would be that the caketin was killed as a venue by the glorious nimbyism of the Thorndon Residents Association and any new venue will have to deal with that concept too.
For that reason I don't see Petone as being viable as, no matter where one puts it, one is still bloody close to residential.

Wharfs over the road from the Cake tin would be nice :-), and slightly further from the Thorndonistas. That way it taps into all the infrstructure - transport, parking, proximity.

But I could be wrong

Trialist
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Second option - modify the exisiting stadium to make it more like the Garbage compactor in the Death Star an have the wall compress in for rectangle games and back out for oval games. Ooze monsters in the sludge beneath are optional

Tegal
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oh21 wrote:

Second option - modify the exisiting stadium to make it more like the Garbage compactor in the Death Star an have the wall compress in for rectangle games and back out for oval games. Ooze monsters in the sludge beneath are optional

I'm all for turning the stadium into the Death Star. 
Starting XI
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Tegal wrote:
oh21 wrote:

Second option - modify the exisiting stadium to make it more like the Garbage compactor in the Death Star an have the wall compress in for rectangle games and back out for oval games. Ooze monsters in the sludge beneath are optional

I'm all for turning the stadium into the Death Star. 

Just no issues with thermal exhaust ports?
We do not want the Melbourne Rebels destroying it.
Trialist
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I like a Deathstar conversion of the Cake Tin, however any major work and its going to get close to the cost of a brand new smaller facility.

a.k.a AJ13
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Wibblebutt wrote:
SurgeQld wrote:

Article in yesterdays Hutt News re Petone Rec proposal... hmmmm...

 

PS: NEVER read the comments... lol


Almost stopped after reading the first sentence.... "The prospect of Paul Ifill scoring a winning goal for the Wellington Phoenix on the Petone Rec is not as far-fetched as it sounds." It sounds extremely far fetched to me considering he's extremely unlikely to be playing for the Nix if/when a stadium is ever built there.

That's not really the point they're trying to make though ... 
Overseas
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AJ13 wrote:
Wibblebutt wrote:
SurgeQld wrote:

Article in yesterdays Hutt News re Petone Rec proposal... hmmmm...

 

PS: NEVER read the comments... lol


Almost stopped after reading the first sentence.... "The prospect of Paul Ifill scoring a winning goal for the Wellington Phoenix on the Petone Rec is not as far-fetched as it sounds." It sounds extremely far fetched to me considering he's extremely unlikely to be playing for the Nix if/when a stadium is ever built there.

That's not really the point they're trying to make though ... 


Yes I realise that but it makes it me think "this guy doesn't know what he talking about". I did however keep reading. It's interesting they already have conceptual drawings.

LG
Legend
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I just wish we dont have to keep sitting 100 yards away from the action. Eden park is bad for it too yet their ground isn't oval. Forsythe Bar has to be the best ground in NZ and if we had had that built here in Wellington, it'd be perfect. Room for expansion if need yet compact when needed.

Heaven knows I'm miserable now
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I have to say, I agree a second NZ team would increase interest in quite a big way. Not sure how likely it is though.

Starting XI
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Tegal wrote:
oh21 wrote:

Second option - modify the exisiting stadium to make it more like the Garbage compactor in the Death Star an have the wall compress in for rectangle games and back out for oval games. Ooze monsters in the sludge beneath are optional

I'm all for turning the stadium into the Death Star. 


Oh my god then Spotless could run the Death Star canteen!!!


This tray is wet, this tray is wet, this tray is wet. Did you dry these in a rainforest?


WeeNix
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Where is Jeff Vader when you need him?


Marquee
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Someone explain to me why these options are not viable:

* Option 1 - build a new, smaller stadium next to the current one.  Is there not enough space around that part of the collapsing waterfront?

*Option 2 - rebuild the existing stadium, section by section.  Officially declare cricket will always be at the Basin, demolish the area behind the goal (where the away fans currently sit) and build a new stand up behind where the goal is there (North Stand).  Hell, you could even paint a mural of fans in front while the building is going on behind.  When that is complete, demolish the next section of the stadium and build the East Stand.  It will take a few years, but sports events can continue through this time (although with reduced attendance).

* Option 3 - build a new stadium in Petone, but make behind the goal proper terraces for football, and with seats there for rugby.  They have the technology in Germany, where they have terraces for league games, and seats for Champions League games, so just use that.  Put free buses on to/from Wellington station.  The atmosphere when standing on proper terraces is completely different, and people will be prepared to travel a little bit further for it.

 

I know that none of these will actually happen (in my lifetime), but tell me why not.

Tegal
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1) The Wellington council unlikely to grant resource consent for a competing stadium when we already have one. I actually think there are certain benefits to it if done correctly, but they'll probably figure it too much of a risky venture to have 2 stadiums in a fairly small city. I agree this would be awesome, and the best case scenario. But only in our dreams. 

2) money. Also not entirely certain it'd solve all that much. 

3) money. I think its possible, and clearly being threatened. It is a bold and risky venture, but if current stadium deals don't improve, certain parties may find they have no other choice. However it is also in the stadiums best interests to not lose tenants, so a better deal will probably be struck. Its risky as while you may get great crowds checking out the new stadium to begin with, there is no guarantee they will stay that way and in the long term you may end up with smaller crowds than you have now due to people finding the travel too ridiculous. The running costs may also be lower, but you have to ask yourself whether its worth having a club that is breaking even if nobody is turning up to watch them? 

Starting XI
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AJ13 wrote:
Jeff Vader wrote:
AJ13 wrote:
Doloras wrote:

Whereas, what are the problems with Eden Park? Probably only the cost, and having to elbow cricket and rugby out of the way (just little things than that). It's far bigger than we need, but close off the upper tiers and you'll have a lovely atmosphere.

Umm it's oval, which is how this whole thing started. I was initially against a smaller stadium in Petone/Newtown due to travel time but if it'll shut you aucklanders up with all these mind numbingly retarded suggests to promote and move to Auckland, I'm all for it.


I'm sick to my dick with Aucklanders at the mo. The amount of dorks all of a sudden posting on this forum sums up Auckland perfectly. You only sing when you're winning, where were you before Saturday?!?! (not necessarily you Doloras, you're pretty much OG :)

I'm an Aucklander :o)

I actually agree with you. The Phoenix are a Wellington team and should stay that way. People forgot we had 2 teams and the instant they shit out, they get 1.3k to games. The Phoenix, at their lowest, have never had that much drop off. Yeah we had a crowd of 18k. How many came up from Wellington? Lets say 4k. How many came from outside Auckland (Waikato/Northland) Lets say 1k. 13k in a population of 1.4m is nothing to start getting hard over. In fact, its quite embarrassing.

An HAL side here wont work. Its been done already. Why go back to the well once again to find what had been proven by fact.

I believe that it will one day work. Whether that's today or not I'm not sure. BUT it should not come at the expense of another city and it's people, some of who invest the better part of each day supporting our club, not just the YF who are mostly known for their 90min display every couple of weeks yet work tirelessly behind the scenes, but all the everyday people too. There are much more than 7k of us trust me.

I'd even go so far as saying you would actually need the Nix for an Auckland side to survive. We finally have a template which works, and the 2-3 meetings between the two sides every season (depending on the size of the league at the time) would mark the biggest dates on the NZ Football calendar. It would be something that football has never seen in this country, and would engage more people than anything before it. The competitiveness would go a long way, you would have the clubs and fans constantly trying to one-up each other, it could be what finally gets the game off the ground.

The biggest dates in terms of crowd numbers on the NZ club football calendar were in the 1970's when Christchurch United - New Brighton national league derbies used to attract 10,000 spectators. Hard to believe now when ASB Premiership games attract a few hundred people.
Other national league games in the 1970's attracted such crowds too. But I can't remember Wellington sides in those days attracting very big crowds. Miramar and Wellington Diamond United never seemed to exceed about a thousand but I may be wrong...
The biggest rivalry in NZ football in the 70's and 80's was between Christchurch and Auckland since it was Christchurch United and Mount Wellington who were the two most successful sides. Cantabrians will always turn out in larger numbers to watch a game vs. an Auckland side in any sport.
Amazing to think there was a period when NZ national league sides could sometimes attract larger crowds than any the Phoenix have had in Wellington so far this season (or last season).
Starting XI
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SurgeQld wrote:
Quintinh wrote:
To answer some questions from earlier in this thread…. What
makes the Christchurch stadium temporary? The scaffolding and the seats which
are leased and not owned by the stadium amongst other things… Average stadium
construction costs are around $4000 - $6000 per seat at the moment, so a 15,000
seat stadium for the phoenix would cost $60M to $90M, and of course the sky is
the limit if you want to add all the bells and whistles.
The temporary reference is often about Canterbury Rugby using it temporarily... once the new Cantab stadium is build they will go there... Addington will go back to what it was previously (not a lot).
The AMI Stadium is designed to have only a temporary life (up to five years but up to twenty with maintenance) and is a mixture of structures owned by the Stadium Trust (gifted free or leased for free) with the seats being the only item on a paid lease  - but even those are "lease-to-buy" so will eventually be owned by the Stadium Trust. First year's lease on the seating was a capital cost - Stadium Trust now pays $750,000 a year to lease-to-buy:
Interview with head of the project at Populous Architecture:
"The new AMI Stadium is designed to have a life of between three and five years – although Maguire says with maintenance it could theoretically last 20-25...
AMI Stadium’s recycling of components from other New Zealand stadia has been critical to the project’s success. The pitch is a fully drained, professional-quality field comprising 12,600m2 of turf harvested in rolls from the old site and then relaid at the new stadium. “The AV screens and the PA system also came from the old AMI Stadium,” reveals Maguire, who joined Populous in February 2008 and worked on the Eden Park redevelopment in Auckland. “We got the temporary seating scaffolds from Eden Park, which weren’t needed after the 2011 Rugby World Cup, while F&B outlets and merchandising were also relocated from both Eden Park and Carisbrook Stadium in Dunedin, which also provided the lighting towers. We leased all of the F&B outlets and toilets for NZ$1, so we saved around NZ$5 million on those items alone. The seats are part of a lease-to-buy deal with Acrow Seating and GL Events..."
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Seems to me a 12,000 seat stadium could be constructed for about 40 million dollars as with Rotherham's new stadium in the UK which opened August 2012 - the "New York Stadium."  The stadium has been built in such a way and the necessary foundations have been put in place to further expand the stadium capacity to 20,000. This would be achieved by adding an additional tier to the North, South and East Stands. This may be done in phases; a first to 16,000 and then a second phase to 20,000.
"Designed by S&P Architects, the 12,000 seater stadium has a roof design that is the stadium's iconic feature. The roof sections are made of solid, highly transparent plastic sheets of polycarbonate in a stepped formation going up to the main stand. These ensure that the atmosphere from the fans is kept within the stadium and reverberated back onto the pitch, whilst also letting sunlight onto the grass.
Other iconic features include the unique floodlights and the steepness of the stands that keep fans close to the action and help foster the excellent atmosphere."
Coventry City are using this as the model for their proposed new 18,000 seat stadium after deciding to quit the Ricoh Arena.



________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Even Barcelona FC are not happy with their current stadium and propose to demolish and rebuild on the same site if a referendum of members supports it. It will include a neighbouring 10,000 capacity stadium for smaller games:


Cock
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the ant wrote:
Where is Jeff Vader when you need him?
I've thought about them.... and killed them with that thought. If there is a dead body in Wellington today, it wasn't me.....
Marquee
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Big Pete 65 wrote:
AJ13 wrote:
Jeff Vader wrote:
AJ13 wrote:
Doloras wrote:

Whereas, what are the problems with Eden Park? Probably only the cost, and having to elbow cricket and rugby out of the way (just little things than that). It's far bigger than we need, but close off the upper tiers and you'll have a lovely atmosphere.

Umm it's oval, which is how this whole thing started. I was initially against a smaller stadium in Petone/Newtown due to travel time but if it'll shut you aucklanders up with all these mind numbingly retarded suggests to promote and move to Auckland, I'm all for it.


I'm sick to my dick with Aucklanders at the mo. The amount of dorks all of a sudden posting on this forum sums up Auckland perfectly. You only sing when you're winning, where were you before Saturday?!?! (not necessarily you Doloras, you're pretty much OG :)

I'm an Aucklander :o)

I actually agree with you. The Phoenix are a Wellington team and should stay that way. People forgot we had 2 teams and the instant they shit out, they get 1.3k to games. The Phoenix, at their lowest, have never had that much drop off. Yeah we had a crowd of 18k. How many came up from Wellington? Lets say 4k. How many came from outside Auckland (Waikato/Northland) Lets say 1k. 13k in a population of 1.4m is nothing to start getting hard over. In fact, its quite embarrassing.

An HAL side here wont work. Its been done already. Why go back to the well once again to find what had been proven by fact.

I believe that it will one day work. Whether that's today or not I'm not sure. BUT it should not come at the expense of another city and it's people, some of who invest the better part of each day supporting our club, not just the YF who are mostly known for their 90min display every couple of weeks yet work tirelessly behind the scenes, but all the everyday people too. There are much more than 7k of us trust me.

I'd even go so far as saying you would actually need the Nix for an Auckland side to survive. We finally have a template which works, and the 2-3 meetings between the two sides every season (depending on the size of the league at the time) would mark the biggest dates on the NZ Football calendar. It would be something that football has never seen in this country, and would engage more people than anything before it. The competitiveness would go a long way, you would have the clubs and fans constantly trying to one-up each other, it could be what finally gets the game off the ground.

The biggest dates in terms of crowd numbers on the NZ club football calendar were in the 1970's when Christchurch United - New Brighton national league derbies used to attract 10,000 spectators. Hard to believe now when ASB Premiership games attract a few hundred people.

Other national league games in the 1970's attracted such crowds too. But I can't remember Wellington sides in those days attracting very big crowds. Wngtn City, Wests, Stop Out .... Miramar and Wellington Diamond United never seemed to exceed about a thousand but I may be wrong...

The biggest rivalry in NZ football in the 70's and 80's was between Christchurch and Auckland since it was Christchurch United and Mount Wellington who were the two most successful sides. Cantabrians will always turn out in larger numbers to watch a game vs. an Auckland side in any sport.

Amazing to think there was a period when NZ national league sides could sometimes attract larger crowds than any the Phoenix have had in Wellington so far this season (or last season).

You're right. However right from the start of the Nat League the Wngtn teams on the field were playing catch-up to Auckland & ChCh Utd. It was soul-destroying.

Marquee
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Fitzy wrote:
[

 

 This tray is wet, this tray is wet, this tray is wet. Did you dry these in a rainforest?


Marquee
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AJ13 wrote:

.

I'd even go so far as saying you would actually need the Nix for an Auckland side to survive. We finally have a template which works, and the 2-3 meetings between the two sides every season (depending on the size of the league at the time) would mark the biggest dates on the NZ Football calendar. It would be something that football has never seen in this country, and would engage more people than anything before it. The competitiveness would go a long way, you would have the clubs and fans constantly trying to one-up each other, it could be what finally gets the game off the ground.

With you all the way. Bring it on. Before I die.

Starting XI
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Can anyone repeat for me what are the average weekly crowed numbers in the other professional sports in NZ like Cricket, Rugby to put into persective.

Marquee
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number8 wrote:

Can anyone repeat for me what are the average weekly crowed numbers in the other professional sports in NZ like Cricket, Rugby to put into persective.

Irrelevent.

Marquee
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I think what is relevant about it would be mapping average crowds over a number of years. I would suspect the dcline would mirror that seen by the nix.

WeeNix
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Sell outs for Plunket Sheild games....

Opinion Privileges revoked
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Remember that there was virtually nothing on TV sports-wise back in the 70's - certainly no live FA Cup or whatever. You might as well go out to watch anything, even snail racing. Cricket wasn't even shown live until we beat England at the Basin in '78.

Legend
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FA cup final was screened live in the 70s. I would get up to watch them each year.

Moar stars
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Jerzy Merino wrote:
number8 wrote:

Can anyone repeat for me what are the average weekly crowed numbers in the other professional sports in NZ like Cricket, Rugby to put into persective.

Irrelevent.


How so ? We don't need base numbers now ? How do we know what we are competing against ? I would love to see you run a company. 
"Jerzy, do we need a report on our competitors sales numbers and prices of their products so we can price ours strategically ?"
"Irrelevant. Just guess it mate. Yea she'll be right."

Legend
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Not competing against, just indicative of likely maximum market.

tradition and history
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Junior82 wrote:

FA cup final was screened live in the 70s. I would get up to watch them each year.



First time the FA cup final was shown live in NZ was the Leeds v Sunderland final in 1973.
Legend
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Yep. We watched it at the neighbours as they had colour tv.

tradition and history
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Black & white was what I watched it on. Pretty one sided game but the Sunderland keeper was magic that day and Porterfields goal was a cracker. If I had put $100 on that result I would have be able to retire.

Legend
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We'd recently moved back from England so it was great to watch stuff from old blighty.

Our neighbours generously let us kids come over each year until we got colour (can't remember when).

Moar stars
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Legend
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Only if the Legster is paying and Buffy doesn't mind.

WeeNix
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number8 wrote:

Can anyone repeat for me what are the average weekly crowed numbers in the other professional sports in NZ like Cricket, Rugby to put into persective.


rugby for wellington last year was around 6-7000, not sure on cricket, but im pretty sure most cricket games get played at the basin anyways so probably around the same considering its size.
Opinion Privileges revoked
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I remember back in the early days of the RoF when you could pack it out for an ODI. I was at that one match against England where Peter Jackson came on in the innings break with a sound recorder and got us to chant in Orcish. So that's my voice in there somewhere when they're attacking Helm's Deep. Anyway, the point is that that the big issue in the last 10 years is that attendance at international cricket's gone down the tubes.

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$40-45 Million Soccer Specific Stadium - Petone Phoenix