Marquee
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about 17 years

Thread to discuss the Rob Sherman ASBP review and the future of the competition.

First question, should the competition remain a summer league?  You do have the benefit of better pitches and weather, and with players playing on a Saturday theoretically have more people in Summer to come and watch.  I but I also wonder whether there's just more to do in Summer which means you lose people.  On a nice day in Wellington there is a million other things to do rather than go and watch ASBP football.  

Second question, club or franchise?  

Personally I'm going away from the franchise league because while I think it has helped to raise standards I don't think it has really met many of the other aims of the league (increase crowds, improve organisation, secure funding, get more media coverage, be more financially viable).  The issue I have is that the 4 best franchises Wellington, Napier, ACFC and Waitak are basically just winter clubs in summer guise.  Canterbury are a combi team which they've always had right back to the old Summer league/ Southern league days so they've probably done best to combine the clubs down there.

Must try harder
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Your talking about a competition that's just about dead on its feet , crowds continue to fall , lack of any real public buzz ...irrelevant how it continues , this is an ex-competition , it'll run until the U20s / Wanderers compete , then just fade away ...

Trialist
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It'll run as long as Merrick and Morgan want it too, Otherwise where will there Reserve team play?

Appiah without the pace
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Top contribution from the ACFC fans again.

I think it needs to retain the summer format so the youngster can play all year round once combined with winter football.

The franchise/club thing is interesting. Both ways have their pros and cons. While many of the ASBP clubs are essentially a winter club in disguise, if it was run like a champion league, would then that reinforce a dominant club in each region during the winter. ie would the entire TeeDubs team go back to playing Miramar in the winter. If so, that would create a pretty one sided winter league.

Early retirement
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Vayne wrote:

It'll run as long as Merrick and Morgan want it too, Otherwise where will there Reserve team play?

So it has only existed for 10 years waiting for the chance for the Phoenix reserves to exist?

Trialist
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Read post again idiot!

If ASB is scrapped and goes to winter club based league as previous poster suggested could be an option where would Phoenix Reserves play in summer

So clearly in there interests for ASB to continue in current format and they do seem to be dictating a lot of way the league is currently being run

Trialist
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And how many winter clubs are actually interested in competing in club based league?

I doubt a lot of Auckland clubs would be interested?

The Birko and ECB boys may want to comment about there clubs

The  likes of Caversham cant even afford to enter Chatham Cup anymore so how would they fund a National league team

Appiah without the pace
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Vayne wrote:

Read post again idiot!

If ASB is scrapped and goes to winter club based league as previous poster suggested could be an option where would Phoenix Reserves play in summer

So clearly in there interests for ASB to continue in current format and they do seem to be dictating a lot of way the league is currently being run

Calling me an idiot is a one way street to banning.

A-league clubs in Australia are able to have their youth teams in the various state leagues. So it is seems possible for the Phoenix to do it as well. Would just need NZF to write the regs to support it. Albeit there may be some difficulty in demoting first teamers down.

Trialist
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2ndBest wrote:

Vayne wrote:

Read post again idiot!

If ASB is scrapped and goes to winter club based league as previous poster suggested could be an option where would Phoenix Reserves play in summer

So clearly in there interests for ASB to continue in current format and they do seem to be dictating a lot of way the league is currently being run

Calling me an idiot is a one way street to banning.

A-league clubs in Australia are able to have their youth teams in the various state leagues. So it is seems possible for the Phoenix to do it as well. Would just need NZF to write the regs to support it. Albeit there may be some difficulty in demoting first teamers down.

Wasnt refering to you.

But Phoenix dont have a Youth team?

And whats the point of having a Reserve side playing in Winter outside of A-League season

and not having any Reserve side playing during  Summer? Merrick would still be moaning about no game time for squad players during season.

Are any overage players allowed to play in A-League Youth comp? 

Appiah without the pace
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Vayne wrote:

Wasnt refering to you.

But Phoenix dont have a Youth team?

And whats the point of having a Reserve side playing in Winter outside of A-League season

and not having any Reserve side playing during  Summer? Merrick would still be moaning about no game time for squad players during season.

Are any overage players allowed to play in A-League Youth comp? 

For the youth/academy players.

Early retirement
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So was it me you were calling an idiot?  Because that will go the same way.

Vayne wrote:

Are any overage players allowed to play in A-League Youth comp? 

Yes.  Close to the same rules as the ASB Prem side have.

Trialist
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2ndBest wrote:

Vayne wrote:

Wasnt refering to you.

But Phoenix dont have a Youth team?

And whats the point of having a Reserve side playing in Winter outside of A-League season

and not having any Reserve side playing during  Summer? Merrick would still be moaning about no game time for squad players during season.

Are any overage players allowed to play in A-League Youth comp? 

For the youth/academy players.

But you would still need a Summer side? And who would they play if no Summer National league

And I agree with a Winter youth side in Central league far more than the Reserves in the ASB Prem its what the Wanderers should of done

Cock
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Vayne wrote:

It'll run as long as Merrick and Morgan want it too, Otherwise where will there Reserve team play?

I'm glad you don't view the contribution of your ACFC as being anything significant then...
Cock
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2ndBest wrote:

Top contribution from the ACFC fans again.

I think it needs to retain the summer format so the youngster can play all year round once combined with winter football.

The franchise/club thing is interesting. Both ways have their pros and cons. While many of the ASBP clubs are essentially a winter club in disguise, if it was run like a champion league, would then that reinforce a dominant club in each region during the winter. ie would the entire TeeDubs team go back to playing Miramar in the winter. If so, that would create a pretty one sided winter league.

I think this is a key statement.

If we have national league and regional football being run at the same time, you remove the issue of players going back to regional football and skewing that regional league. At the same time, you then have 6 months in winter where nothing is being played, development for the players at the pointy end of the wedge stops with no all year round action and the regional leagues will have no relevance at all in the shadow of a national league.

As much as the crowds are not taking to it, I think it must stay in the summer and as mentioned, the surfaces are better, it will give the game and players all year round action as well. The engagement factor goes back on the competition organisers. To that end, I don't think it would be a bad idea for the competition to 'breakaway' with the clubs running it and NZF playing more a policy/advisory role. They have shown that they cannot run the thing and as much as Chris Kemp has picked up the pieces, Glyn Taylor was fucking useless.

I guess the real debate is club v franchise as there are pros and cons on both sides for sure.

Trialist
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Jeff Vader wrote:

Vayne wrote:

It'll run as long as Merrick and Morgan want it too, Otherwise where will there Reserve team play?

I'm glad you don't view the contribution of your ACFC as being anything significant then...

Not my ACFC mate!

As for rest of that comment you've lost me..... Dont see connection between Phoenix needing ASB Prem to stay and what Auckland City have won?????

Trialist
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Jeff Vader wrote:

2ndBest wrote:

Top contribution from the ACFC fans again.

I think it needs to retain the summer format so the youngster can play all year round once combined with winter football.

The franchise/club thing is interesting. Both ways have their pros and cons. While many of the ASBP clubs are essentially a winter club in disguise, if it was run like a champion league, would then that reinforce a dominant club in each region during the winter. ie would the entire TeeDubs team go back to playing Miramar in the winter. If so, that would create a pretty one sided winter league.

I think this is a key statement.

If we have national league and regional football being run at the same time, you remove the issue of players going back to regional football and skewing that regional league. At the same time, you then have 6 months in winter where nothing is being played, development for the players at the pointy end of the wedge stops with no all year round action and the regional leagues will have no relevance at all in the shadow of a national league.

As much as the crowds are not taking to it, I think it must stay in the summer and as mentioned, the surfaces are better, it will give the game and players all year round action as well. The engagement factor goes back on the competition organisers. To that end, I don't think it would be a bad idea for the competition to 'breakaway' with the clubs running it and NZF playing more a policy/advisory role. They have shown that they cannot run the thing and as much as Chris Kemp has picked up the pieces, Glyn Taylor was fucking useless.

I guess the real debate is club v franchise as there are pros and cons on both sides for sure.

But would the clubs agree to Phoenix being in it? And who decides who and if any new teams join?

But do agree it has to stay in summer.

Trialist
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Hard News wrote:

So was it me you were calling an idiot?  Because that will go the same way.

Vayne wrote:

Are any overage players allowed to play in A-League Youth comp? 

Yes.  Close to the same rules as the ASB Prem side have.

Yes it was you.

Then thats the league Reserves should play in then, But of course they cant afford it so they need the ASB Prem or Summer league to remain, Hence the comment that it will remain as long as Merrick and Co. want it too 

Cock
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My troll monitor just went through the roof

Trialist
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Oh dear!!!..

You're comebacks are legendary in there blandness.

But good to see you totally missed the point, at least you appear to be amusing yourself between bedbaths

Marquee
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Vayne wrote:

Oh dear!!!..

You're comebacks are legendary in there blandness.

But good to see you totally missed the point, at least you appear to be amusing yourself between bedbaths

So what you are saying is that the Nix (through their reserves) are responsible for the survival of the NZ's premier league?

I thought they were destroying football in NZ?

Trialist
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Ironic really isnt it! They will keep it alive for there own use until there are ready to turn off the life support that they put it on

Marquee
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can we actually discuss the topic?

Trialist
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We are doing just Vader as usual......

Must try harder
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I must get " Moderator " put behind my name , apparently its a marvel , Viagra for the ret@r&ed....

Still Believin'
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A couple of things:

1. I think the more important question at the outset is what it the role/purpose of the National League? Development or something else? Sort that out and then the answers to the other questions become a bit more obvious.

2. I'm already sick of Vayne.

Early retirement
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Why they keep needing new accounts instead of using the old one I have no idea.  It's clear when it's the same baseless points that it's the same people.

I'm more concerned with who the decision makers are and the fact that some of them know only British football rather than an understanding of the New Zealand market.

Cock
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terminator_x wrote:

A couple of things:

1. I think the more important question at the outset is what it the role/purpose of the National League? Development or something else? Sort that out and then the answers to the other questions become a bit more obvious.

2. I'm already sick of Vayne.

I was waiting for you to post because I like your views in this area. Point 1 is on the nose again.

I think if its a development channel, then is needs to the STRICTLY amateur and there is not the need for these imports hanging about 12 to a team. You would then also argue that if it is development, where are the teams best placed to help player development. I only ask that because I understood Nelson has a nice young group of talent there so do you go to places like Nelson for example?

If its to service the elite then that places a question around the Phoenix because they were granted their licence on the back of no professional football in this country. Bring in professional football and then the Phoenix falls away cause their reason for exemption has gone.

Granted that is quite simplistic but you are so correct on point 1.

Marquee
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The ASB can hardly be considered simply as just a Development League when the OFC want the winning team to represent this country in the Oceania playoffs for the World Club Cup.

Starting XI
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for me the ASB Premiership probably needs to move to a semi-pro or pro league at some point if we are going to improve as a country at football - but this needs to happen without effecting grassroots football which will feed into this league.

The irony is that maybe with ACFC and Waitak to one side there is more money in Regional leagues than there is in the ASBP - certainly in Auckland there is more money in NRFL Premier League than in the ASBP (sans the big aforementioned 2).

so how do we get those guys with the money to invest in making a pro league?

I know there will be some issues with funding money and what not but instead of blaming each other there must be a solution somewhere for this to exist.

Cock
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Jerzy Merino wrote:

The ASB can hardly be considered simply as just a Development League when the OFC want the winning team to represent this country in the Oceania playoffs for the World Club Cup.

And there in shows exactly why this is not an easy decision to make.
Marquee
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chopah wrote:

for me the ASB Premiership probably needs to move to a semi-pro or pro league at some point if we are going to improve as a country at football - but this needs to happen without effecting grassroots football which will feed into this league.

The irony is that maybe with ACFC and Waitak to one side there is more money in Regional leagues than there is in the ASBP - certainly in Auckland there is more money in NRFL Premier League than in the ASBP (sans the big aforementioned 2).

so how do we get those guys with the money to invest in making a pro league?

I know there will be some issues with funding money and what not but instead of blaming each other there must be a solution somewhere for this to exist.

Allow promo/relegation and let market forces apply, same as everywhere else.

Cock
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chopah wrote:

for me the ASB Premiership probably needs to move to a semi-pro or pro league at some point if we are going to improve as a country at football - but this needs to happen without effecting grassroots football which will feed into this league.

The irony is that maybe with ACFC and Waitak to one side there is more money in Regional leagues than there is in the ASBP - certainly in Auckland there is more money in NRFL Premier League than in the ASBP (sans the big aforementioned 2).

so how do we get those guys with the money to invest in making a pro league?

I know there will be some issues with funding money and what not but instead of blaming each other there must be a solution somewhere for this to exist.

I think we'd all love that but is there the talent pool of players? It would also stuff the NCAA college eligibility. It means any kid with talent would not touch the league so you are then paying the the ones that are left over (and we are talking youth) they may not be worthy of paying.
Appiah without the pace
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james dean wrote:

can we actually discuss the topic?

This. Will start hiding irrelevant posts.

Interesting topic that doesn't need to resort to flinging shit like previous threads.

Legend
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Jerzy Merino wrote:

chopah wrote:

for me the ASB Premiership probably needs to move to a semi-pro or pro league at some point if we are going to improve as a country at football - but this needs to happen without effecting grassroots football which will feed into this league.

The irony is that maybe with ACFC and Waitak to one side there is more money in Regional leagues than there is in the ASBP - certainly in Auckland there is more money in NRFL Premier League than in the ASBP (sans the big aforementioned 2).

so how do we get those guys with the money to invest in making a pro league?

I know there will be some issues with funding money and what not but instead of blaming each other there must be a solution somewhere for this to exist.

Allow promo/relegation and let market forces apply, same as everywhere else.

Can you tell me who got relegated from the MLS last season?

Trialist
6
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31
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over 9 years

Jeff Vader wrote:

chopah wrote:

for me the ASB Premiership probably needs to move to a semi-pro or pro league at some point if we are going to improve as a country at football - but this needs to happen without effecting grassroots football which will feed into this league.

The irony is that maybe with ACFC and Waitak to one side there is more money in Regional leagues than there is in the ASBP - certainly in Auckland there is more money in NRFL Premier League than in the ASBP (sans the big aforementioned 2).

so how do we get those guys with the money to invest in making a pro league?

I know there will be some issues with funding money and what not but instead of blaming each other there must be a solution somewhere for this to exist.

I think we'd all love that but is there the talent pool of players? It would also stuff the NCAA college eligibility. It means any kid with talent would not touch the league so you are then paying the the ones that are left over (and we are talking youth) they may not be worthy of paying.

How does that work now though with a pro team and pro players playing in ASBP? 

Are you saying any of the young guys being payed to play for Phoenix reserves could not then go to US?

Trialist
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Jeff Vader wrote:

Jerzy Merino wrote:

The ASB can hardly be considered simply as just a Development League when the OFC want the winning team to represent this country in the Oceania playoffs for the World Club Cup.

And there in shows exactly why this is not an easy decision to make.

I would say that makes it a very easy decision to make!! 

Unless we end up in Asia oneday then it becomes an easy decision the other way

Cock
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Vayne wrote:

Jeff Vader wrote:

chopah wrote:

for me the ASB Premiership probably needs to move to a semi-pro or pro league at some point if we are going to improve as a country at football - but this needs to happen without effecting grassroots football which will feed into this league.

The irony is that maybe with ACFC and Waitak to one side there is more money in Regional leagues than there is in the ASBP - certainly in Auckland there is more money in NRFL Premier League than in the ASBP (sans the big aforementioned 2).

so how do we get those guys with the money to invest in making a pro league?

I know there will be some issues with funding money and what not but instead of blaming each other there must be a solution somewhere for this to exist.

I think we'd all love that but is there the talent pool of players? It would also stuff the NCAA college eligibility. It means any kid with talent would not touch the league so you are then paying the the ones that are left over (and we are talking youth) they may not be worthy of paying.

How does that work now though with a pro team and pro players playing in ASBP? 

Are you saying any of the young guys being payed to play for Phoenix reserves could not then go to US?

Effectively - yes. I would think that the young lad McGarry whom is playing for them (is he 16?) would not be able to go to college in the US.

I am sure thats how it still works so don't take that quite as gospel.

Trialist
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chopah wrote:

for me the ASB Premiership probably needs to move to a semi-pro or pro league at some point if we are going to improve as a country at football - but this needs to happen without effecting grassroots football which will feed into this league.

The irony is that maybe with ACFC and Waitak to one side there is more money in Regional leagues than there is in the ASBP - certainly in Auckland there is more money in NRFL Premier League than in the ASBP (sans the big aforementioned 2).

so how do we get those guys with the money to invest in making a pro league?

I know there will be some issues with funding money and what not but instead of blaming each other there must be a solution somewhere for this to exist.

When the Phoenix can only average 7000 crowds and more alarmingly only 15k per game for TV viewing then how can we expect anyone to invest in ASBP 

Cock
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over 14 years

Vayne wrote:

Jeff Vader wrote:

Jerzy Merino wrote:

The ASB can hardly be considered simply as just a Development League when the OFC want the winning team to represent this country in the Oceania playoffs for the World Club Cup.

And there in shows exactly why this is not an easy decision to make.

I would say that makes it a very easy decision to make!! 

Unless we end up in Asia oneday then it becomes an easy decision the other way

We wont end up in Asia - that will not happen at all. FIFA will not leave this part of the world hanging out in the wind. If anything happened, they would join us into Asia and split it East and West with us getting Australia back and places like Indonesia, Malaysia, Phillipines etc so we would just be East Asia - effectively a larger OFC.
Stage Punch
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11K
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over 16 years

Jeff Vader wrote:

chopah wrote:

for me the ASB Premiership probably needs to move to a semi-pro or pro league at some point if we are going to improve as a country at football - but this needs to happen without effecting grassroots football which will feed into this league.

The irony is that maybe with ACFC and Waitak to one side there is more money in Regional leagues than there is in the ASBP - certainly in Auckland there is more money in NRFL Premier League than in the ASBP (sans the big aforementioned 2).

so how do we get those guys with the money to invest in making a pro league?

I know there will be some issues with funding money and what not but instead of blaming each other there must be a solution somewhere for this to exist.

I think we'd all love that but is there the talent pool of players? It would also stuff the NCAA college eligibility. It means any kid with talent would not touch the league so you are then paying the the ones that are left over (and we are talking youth) they may not be worthy of paying.

Not any more. The rules have changed and you can now do whatever you like for a year (or two?) after high school and still be NCAA eligible.

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