The Travelling Circus - playing home games around NZ

Opinion Privileges revoked
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over 14 years

Kiwi Hatter wrote:

Doloras wrote:

Incidentally, can we have a new thread for "For/against Home-Away Games"? Aka "Angry about the Travelling Circus", or "I'd rather we were playing at Newtown Park than Mt Smart".

Feel free to start one

FINE

Opinion Privileges revoked
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over 14 years

I suppose I'll put in my 20c to start with - I do understand the anger that many Welly based fans feel at the idea of having to travel to their home games. I do agree that it is the Wellington Phoenix and not a "NZ" team - I am a Wellingtonian by heritage and I would have never supported the Knights. And we've rehearsed the financial/FFA arguments over and over again.

But now the anger has gotten to the point where it's almost as if Auckland-based fans in particular (there didn't seem to be a real issue with Christchurch games) are being made to feel unwelcome by some fans. As if proud Wellingtonianism means JAFA-bashing. I have actually been to every Auckland Nix game there ever was and quite frankly standing in the zone hearing chants about how much Auckland sucks (or "is bearable" at best) is unpleasant. This is of course why I stopped going to ACFC games because I was sick of the anti-Nix chants (though I hear that's not a big thing any more - haven't seen the Knitting Circle in a while).

I'm going to continue going to every Nix game in the hated sprawl, stand in the Zone and chant my head off, even if people look straight through me. And there are a lot of other people on this forum who do likewise. The Travelling Circus at least throws people like me a bone. End of rant.

WeeNix
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almost 12 years

If us Wellingtonians averaged a gate of maybe 10-12k per game, then there should be no need for a travelling circus (outside of turf relaying).  The fact is we don't.  There is a core group of about 4-5k and everyone else are to varying degrees fairweather fans where certain conditions must be met before they will go. 

An argument could be made that a sustained advertising effort hasn't been made in Welly to get more people along and I'd agree with that to some extent.  The junior giveaway thing this year I thought was brilliant though - pity the results for those games weren't any better.

I was pissed when I first heard how many games would be away from Westpac this year, but I now view it that if the sponsors want it, people actually turn up to those games and especially if City Council's (or whoever) underwrite the costs; then the non-Welly based fans are allowing me to see the team at Westpac ~ 10 times a year.

Jaume
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WeeNix
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I don't have an issue with the occasional match outside Wellington but the scheduling (which isn't Auckland or Hamilton fans' fault) is pretty poor. Straight after the summer holidays begin (when a lot of families could've attended in Welly) having a match in Hamilton where they proceed to do 0 advertising for it? Not sure why people are scapegoating non-Wellingtonian fans, if anything this is the Nix' fault due to a severe lack of advertising and promotion. First ever match in Hamilton should've attracted at least 10,000 Hamiltonians and Waikato people being thrilled for a home match. All away from Wellington home matches should be attracting more fans than the average Wellington match due to their rarity.

The scheduling has been beyond poor. All of December without a match in Wellington and that's the reason some Wellingtonians are mad... but again why get angry at non-Wellingtonians? This isn't non-Wellingtonians' fault. This is the Nix' fault for scheduling these home away from home matches poorly. And then one week of three home matches in Wellington in January. One of the December matches should've been scheduled for Wellington and one of the January matches should've been scheduled for Hamilton/Auckland.

Tegal
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Head Sleuth
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The stadium is closed all of December as the turf is being replaced. 

I agree that home away games should be attracting more than the average Wellington crowd due to the one off nature of the game. 

I like what they've done with Auckland games this season. Two different stadiums to get two different catchment areas. Also one game toward the end of the season to hopefully cash in on a bandwagon effect if we are on a finals push and doing well. 

Starting XI
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My position on this subject is fairly well known. I do not like the Phoenix having to play games away from home. I have traveled to most of the "home" games outside of Wellington over the years, & I have had a bloody good time in all of the host cities.

My objection this year is heightened due to the total disregard of the supporters based in the Wellington Region , by the club.

To expect season ticket holders to travel away four times in a season for a home game is ludicrous. What makes it even more unbelievable is the timing.  Trips to Hamilton & Auckland on consecutive weeks prior to Xmas is just not financially achievable for a lot of season ticket holders.

I put the blame totally on the club for this.

They knew that the stadium was being resurfaced in december, why didnt they arrange for at least one game to be rescheduled in  Aussie? 

It is not the fault of the Hamilton , Auckland or New Plymouth fans. It's a bonus for them to see the Phoenix close to home. 

The Traveling Circus has also been insisted upon by Huawei, they have their NZ HQ in Auckland & want the Phoenix to play up there more often! Why bother sponsoring a Wellington based franchise if you want a team closer to home?

To add insult to injury & to really highlight the clubs disregard for the season ticket holders they are trying to increase the Metrics of membership by introducing 3 game memberships that are significantly cheaper than season ticket prices.

Season ticket holders have to pay in advance & get 10 games in Wellington. I paid $16.90 per game for these 10 games ( I also have tickets to the away games but I cannot go to most of them). Currently there is a "Hat-Trick" promo for the 3 scheduled games in January. 

Due to the Victory game being postoned the "Hat-Trick" promo now includes 4 games for the price of $25 in the Yellow Fever, ($6.25/game) or a Silver Ticket for $50 ($12.50/game). It appears to me ( plus others I have spoken to, who don't come on the YF Forum) as though the club dont give a second thought to the supporters who pay well in advance the higher dollars & go to watch them more often than any other supporters in the country.

There has been VERY poor marketing to engage the half million people in the Wellington Region, but there seems to be more emphasis on trying to get bigger crowds in Auckland !!!! 

A small number of over opinionated inhabitants outside of the Wellington Region think that it is their right to have the Wellington Phoenix play in Auckland. They complain about QBE being to difficult to get to, they complained about Eden Park, they complain that its hard to get transport back from Hamilton, but they still think it is their right to NOT have to travel very far.  

I disagree, we're the WELLINGTON Phoenix, not the NZ Phoenix. Welnix stated they were taking over the club for the benefit of Wellington, & they were only looking for the club to be self funding. 

The atmosphere around the club & the Yellow Fever has changed over the past 12 months, sadly, not for the better!

So if Rob Morrison, et al, want to take the club  to Auckland , I predict that they will go the same way as the Kingz & the Knights!

Marquee
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over 12 years

I completely accept that it's sponsors and the FFA driving it, but I still don't like it. I think that long term it's bad for the club and bad for the A League. Especially if it's 3+ games a season. If you are going to play games out of town too then they should try and time it with the period after Xmas to halfway through January when heaps of Wellingtonians are out of town anyway. Yes, I know the turf is being relaid but I'm talking generally, not this year specifically.

The FFA needs to acknowledge that NZ is not one market and to stop treating our 4.5m people as if they are the equivalent of one large Australian city, because they're not (and even if they are then we could get another team like Melbourne and Sydney have). The only way a professional football team can be sustainable in the long term in Australasia is if it's got a loyal core of fans who follow it through thick and thin. The travelling circus act actively undermines that. Yes, there are passionate Nix fans all over our land but the only place there's enough to sustain regular games is Wellington, yet taking games away from here chips away at the very supporter base you need to survive. You need going to games to be a routine for people but they can't build a routine if there's weeks and weeks between games in town. 

Also, if the travelling circus is successful in the medium term then it might mean we are less likely to get a second NZ team for derbies because the Nix will be seen as a New Zealand team rather than a Wellington team. But having a kiwi derby would generate much more interest in local media and public discussion than the touring Nix would.

As an aside, does anyone know of any other team around the world who do a similar thing? I suspect that we would have played"home" games at more venues and in more cities than any other team in the world in the last decade...

Marquee
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over 12 years

Kiwi Hatter wrote:

My position on this subject is fairly well known. I do not like the Phoenix having to play games away from home. I have traveled to most of the "home" games outside of Wellington over the years, & I have had a bloody good time in all of the host cities.

My objection this year is heightened due to the total disregard of the supporters based in the Wellington Region , by the club.

To expect season ticket holders to travel away four times in a season for a home game is ludicrous. What makes it even more unbelievable is the timing.  Trips to Hamilton & Auckland on consecutive weeks prior to Xmas is just not financially achievable for a lot of season ticket holders.

I put the blame totally on the club for this.

They knew that the stadium was being resurfaced in december, why didnt they arrange for at least one game to be rescheduled in  Aussie? 

It is not the fault of the Hamilton , Auckland or New Plymouth fans. It's a bonus for them to see the Phoenix close to home. 

The Traveling Circus has also been insisted upon by Huawei, they have their NZ HQ in Auckland & want the Phoenix to play up there more often! Why bother sponsoring a Wellington based franchise if you want a team closer to home?

To add insult to injury & to really highlight the clubs disregard for the season ticket holders they are trying to increase the Metrics of membership by introducing 3 game memberships that are significantly cheaper than season ticket prices.

Season ticket holders have to pay in advance & get 10 games in Wellington. I paid $16.90 per game for these 10 games ( I also have tickets to the away games but I cannot go to most of them). Currently there is a "Hat-Trick" promo for the 3 scheduled games in January. 

Due to the Victory game being postoned the "Hat-Trick" promo now includes 4 games for the price of $25 in the Yellow Fever, ($6.25/game) or a Silver Ticket for $50 ($12.50/game). It appears to me ( plus others I have spoken to, who don't come on the YF Forum) as though the club dont give a second thought to the supporters who pay well in advance the higher dollars & go to watch them more often than any other supporters in the country.

There has been VERY poor marketing to engage the half million people in the Wellington Region, but there seems to be more emphasis on trying to get bigger crowds in Auckland !!!! 

A small number of over opinionated inhabitants outside of the Wellington Region think that it is their right to have the Wellington Phoenix play in Auckland. They complain about QBE being to difficult to get to, they complained about Eden Park, they complain that its hard to get transport back from Hamilton, but they still think it is their right to NOT have to travel very far.  

I disagree, we're the WELLINGTON Phoenix, not the NZ Phoenix. Welnix stated they were taking over the club for the benefit of Wellington, & they were only looking for the club to be self funding. 

The atmosphere around the club & the Yellow Fever has changed over the past 12 months, sadly, not for the better!

So if Rob Morrison, et al, want to take the club  to Auckland , I predict that they will go the same way as the Kingz & the Knights!

I said a similar thing about season tickets in the preseason- last year it would have been cheaper to buy a ticket a game than be a season ticket holder. That's insane. I think it shows that the price points are just wrong for season tickets. The club sometimes seems so eager to drag casuals in quickly that it doesn't consider the loyalty of those who are already committed. Which doesn't help people make the transition from casual to tragic
Opinion Privileges revoked
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over 14 years

An argument could be made that a sustained advertising effort hasn't been made in Welly to get more people along

[/quote]

The Phoenix marketing budget / strategy is a whole 'nuther kettle of worms which deserves its own thread. I do remember people saying that it was actually better than most people think.

Jaume wrote:

 First ever match in Hamilton should've attracted at least 10,000 Hamiltonians

First ever regular season match in Hamilton. I went to the pre-season game a few years ago where D-Mac scored a stunner.

[quote=Kiwi Hatter]

They knew that the stadium was being resurfaced in december, why didnt they arrange for at least one game to be rescheduled in  Aussie?

For all you know, they did, and the FFA told them to get bent - just like they told them to get bent over the international window in Round 1.

Opinion Privileges revoked
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Kiwi Hatter wrote:

A small number of over opinionated inhabitants outside of the Wellington Region think that it is their right to have the Wellington Phoenix play in Auckland. They complain about QBE being to difficult to get to, they complained about Eden Park,

Taking the nasty little dig at me out, I do agree that Aucklanders whine far too much about not being able to get around the metropolitan area. They can - they're just too proud to use public transport. I don't own a car and I can get to QBE no problem. I bike to town and get the Northern Express on the fancy Busway. Simple.

As to the nasty little dig at me - I did not complain about not being able to get back from Hamilton. I explained why it was unfeasible for me to get to the game without a car outside the Auckland public transport area. The distance is Welly<->Palmerston North. I did my best to score a lift but I seem to be unpopular for some reason.

Appiah without the pace
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over 16 years

Let's not get personal here please. I don't want to get all banny

Starting XI
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Plenty more discussion on this, in this thread

LG
Legend
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Well let's see, a very poorly promoted game in the Tron - and that is according to the locals. WTF, might as well have had 9k at the Hutt Rec than 5k in the Tron. I wonder how many from Wellington made their way up the game at their own expense and how many travelled down from Auckland at theirs and how do our Sponsors feel that so few attended? Whilst the result and the pitch were excellent, I still think it is a failed experiment. And should the Auckland crowd not show up, the our wonderful sponsors need to read the message loud and clear - give it a friggen rest.

Hatter is right, we could have played "away" fixtures against the same two sides with the returfing in Wellington and then played the "away" games back in Wellington.

I am getting over these road show things. If after 10 years the circus has not made the Nix brand stand out in other centers, then perhaps the realisation might finally dawn that these other centers really don't give a toss. The novelty factor has worn off. Perhaps more effort should be spent on getting the Wellington area fans back into Westpac. We had them that first season. Perhaps the marketing job being done is not just good enough.

If our main sponsor wants football in Auckland, let them set up a team up there to join the A League. There has to be about 150,000 football fans up there. With the right marketing they might do it but I doubt it. The Nix had Sony, they have proven they can get big names to support them as sponsors.

Marquee
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over 14 years

Kudos to those who travel. Up until this year I have missed one home away game  (against Adelaide in Christchurch).

Despite enjoying the away trips my job takes me away from home very regularly -too often- so  that couple with the expense led me to the decision not to bother this year with the away games.

That left 10 home games of which I knew I would miss at least three, so I decided paying for a season ticket for 6 or 7 games makes no sense although I will get the 3 or 4 pack thing.

So in effect the Home away thing, and I know the reasons for it, has meant the club has lost a family membership from me.

I am probably not the only one.

Appiah without the pace
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over 16 years

If people think the Phoenix (and any other club) have anything other than minimal control over the draw then I'd point them to the fact they originally only had a 3 day turn around for a trip to Perth.  Or that Perth regularly get mid afternoon kick offs.

I think I read that the stadium is unavailable for 12 weekends during the a-league season. That doesn't give many options for the schedulers,  because of course other Stadiums are multiuse.

Starting XI
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I hate any Phoenix game being away from Wellington.  It detracts from our engagement and experience. I hate it when Phoenix dont wear yellow and black stripes. I think timing of Wellington games in terms of time of day , day of the week and position in the holiday period is generally crap and has been over several years.  Ive been a season ticket holder every damn year they have existed. As a season ticket purchaser, it would be nice if we got the best deals going, but as someone else pointed out that doesnt always seem to be the case.

I think they have done brilliantly with bringing admission prices down and improving westpac experience in food and drink in the last couple of years.

Thats my opinion.

Unfortunately, there dont appear to be enough people like me to keep the Phoenix running in Wellington without all the other circus crap.

I guess im not yet alienated by the decreasing Wellington experience but I think plenty of people have already been.

Appiah without the pace
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over 16 years

I feel like this same argument comes up every season. I understand the frustrations, but there is a bit of context that some people seem to ignore or forget.

  • I think I’m right in saying that Westpac is the most used stadium in New Zealand so ground unavailable is always going to be an issue. Even if the Phoenix wanted to play all games at home, it would be incredibly difficult. Throw in multiuse grounds in Aus and around NZ, and it’s impossible to get a perfect draw. FFA don’t exactly help and Fox pretty much have veto rights (notice how we don’t have our usual 5pm kick off slots this year? Safe to assume that Fox want a better timeslot in Aus)
  • FFA want us to broaden our appeal to the rest of the country. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was a requirement of our licence extensions. A second NZ club isn’t likely in the near future, so they see us a club for the whole nation.
  • There are more Phoenix fans outside of Wellington than in it. That’s pretty telling. And to get Sky to pay more for the rights, and thus get FFA off our backs, we need Aucklanders to watch. And they are more likely to watch if they feel a greater connection to the club. We need a presence in Auckland.
  • Phoenix make significantly more money from each home away game than they do at Westpac. Unless we have owners that are willing to throw significant amounts of money down the drain, the club needs to break even. Like it or not, away games is part of that mix.
  • Most company’s head office are based in Auckland. Again, to help the club break even, you need to be responsive to your sponsor. Especially given Huawei is giving the club far more than any sponsor has in the past.
  • Let’s not forget the Kingz played a number of games around the country, so this is not exactly a new thing.
  • It’s not as easy to say that marketing will grow the crowds in Wellington. The club has stated in the past that when they have done far more marketing, there is very little, if any, return. Everyone know that New Zealand loves a bandwagon, so the biggest influence on crowds is having a winning team. Just look at the Hurricanes. Their crowds weren’t much better than ours two season until they started winning. It wasn’t to do with marketing.

That’s a unique set of circumstances. So if the toss up is between the current model, and having all games in Wellington where there is a decent chance of the owners giving up or the FFA folding us, then I know which I prefer. 

and 6 others
Starting XI
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almost 10 years

Doloras wrote:

But now the anger has gotten to the point where it's almost as if Auckland-based fans in particular (there didn't seem to be a real issue with Christchurch games) are being made to feel unwelcome by some fans. As if proud Wellingtonianism means JAFA-bashing. I have actually been to every Auckland Nix game there ever was and quite frankly standing in the zone hearing chants about how much Auckland sucks (or "is bearable" at best) is unpleasant. This is of course why I stopped going to ACFC games because I was sick of the anti-Nix chants (though I hear that's not a big thing any more - haven't seen the Knitting Circle in a while).

This one in interesting.  I suppose it would vary form person to person but Auckland has nearly everything else, and two cracks at the only professional NZ football club so I suspect that's the source of some of the anti-Aux mentality, when the only non-auckland team goes to Auckland.

But there has been the Aux vs everyone else rivalry for many years so zone banter is almost certainly expected, as its hardly contained to the zone.

And this year I wouldn't be surprised to see more frustration because they aren't getting a travelling roadshow game, they are getting two.  That feels less like an Auckland game for publicity and the second home for the team-ish.

This is all baseless expectations, but I can see where Nix fans from every other city comes from.  If the Warriors played two home-games in welly next year I would be over the moon.  The NZ vs Wellington part to me is arbitrary.  The Wellington Nix, whether they play a home game or two in Auckland or not.  For purely slefish reasons I want more games at home, but can accept reality.

LG
Legend
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over 16 years

Dale, thanks for playing the devils advocate. We may still disagree on certain issues but I do and have always appreciated what you try to achieve and do. For the betterment of the Fever, the club and football in general.

Marquee
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2ndBest wrote:

I feel like this same argument comes up every season. I understand the frustrations, but there is a bit of context that some people seem to ignore or forget.

  • I think I’m right in saying that Westpac is the most used stadium in New Zealand so ground unavailable is always going to be an issue. Even if the Phoenix wanted to play all games at home, it would be incredibly difficult. Throw in multiuse grounds in Aus and around NZ, and it’s impossible to get a perfect draw. FFA don’t exactly help and Fox pretty much have veto rights (notice how we don’t have our usual 5pm kick off slots this year? Safe to assume that Fox want a better timeslot in Aus)
  • FFA want us to broaden our appeal to the rest of the country. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was a requirement of our licence extensions. A second NZ club isn’t likely in the near future, so they see us a club for the whole nation.
  • There are more Phoenix fans outside of Wellington than in it. That’s pretty telling. And to get Sky to pay more for the rights, and thus get FFA off our backs, we need Aucklanders to watch. And they are more likely to watch if they feel a greater connection to the club. We need a presence in Auckland.
  • Phoenix make significantly more money from each home away game than they do at Westpac. Unless we have owners that are willing to throw significant amounts of money down the drain, the club needs to break even. Like it or not, away games is part of that mix.
  • Most company’s head office are based in Auckland. Again, to help the club break even, you need to be responsive to your sponsor. Especially given Huawei is giving the club far more than any sponsor has in the past.
  • Let’s not forget the Kingz played a number of games around the country, so this is not exactly a new thing.
  • It’s not as easy to say that marketing will grow the crowds in Wellington. The club has stated in the past that when they have done far more marketing, there is very little, if any, return. Everyone know that New Zealand loves a bandwagon, so the biggest influence on crowds is having a winning team. Just look at the Hurricanes. Their crowds weren’t much better than ours two season until they started winning. It wasn’t to do with marketing.

That’s a unique set of circumstances. So if the toss up is between the current model, and having all games in Wellington where there is a decent chance of the owners giving up or the FFA folding us, then I know which I prefer. 

I disagree that it's telling that there are more Phoenix fans outside of Wellington than in it - a lot of pro clubs have more fans outside their town than in it. Pretty much every EPL side for a start, plus Barca, Real, PSG etc. As the only pro side in the country of course we'll have fans all over the show. I understand the commercial imperative to tap into that market but it shouldn't be used as a stick to beat Wellington fans with.

Also I'm not sure that pointing out the Kingz did it helps your argument ;)

Anyway, I get why we do it and it's a necessary evil, but I think it could be managed better at least.

Marquee
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over 14 years

2ndBest wrote:

I feel like this same argument comes up every season. I understand the frustrations, but there is a bit of context that some people seem to ignore or forget.

  • I think I’m right in saying that Westpac is the most used stadium in New Zealand so ground unavailable is always going to be an issue. Even if the Phoenix wanted to play all games at home, it would be incredibly difficult. Throw in multiuse grounds in Aus and around NZ, and it’s impossible to get a perfect draw. FFA don’t exactly help and Fox pretty much have veto rights (notice how we don’t have our usual 5pm kick off slots this year? Safe to assume that Fox want a better timeslot in Aus)
  • FFA want us to broaden our appeal to the rest of the country. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was a requirement of our licence extensions. A second NZ club isn’t likely in the near future, so they see us a club for the whole nation.
  • There are more Phoenix fans outside of Wellington than in it. That’s pretty telling. And to get Sky to pay more for the rights, and thus get FFA off our backs, we need Aucklanders to watch. And they are more likely to watch if they feel a greater connection to the club. We need a presence in Auckland.
  • Phoenix make significantly more money from each home away game than they do at Westpac. Unless we have owners that are willing to throw significant amounts of money down the drain, the club needs to break even. Like it or not, away games is part of that mix.
  • Most company’s head office are based in Auckland. Again, to help the club break even, you need to be responsive to your sponsor. Especially given Huawei is giving the club far more than any sponsor has in the past.
  • Let’s not forget the Kingz played a number of games around the country, so this is not exactly a new thing.
  • It’s not as easy to say that marketing will grow the crowds in Wellington. The club has stated in the past that when they have done far more marketing, there is very little, if any, return. Everyone know that New Zealand loves a bandwagon, so the biggest influence on crowds is having a winning team. Just look at the Hurricanes. Their crowds weren’t much better than ours two season until they started winning. It wasn’t to do with marketing.

That’s a unique set of circumstances. So if the toss up is between the current model, and having all games in Wellington where there is a decent chance of the owners giving up or the FFA folding us, then I know which I prefer. 

Agree entirely Dale.  

While the travelling circus is pretty much inevitable given the current set of circumstances, there are of course downsides to this, not least of which is a disgruntled local loyal fan base and this year it is worse with the returfing, and in other years we have had other events such as the Cricket World Cup.

As you mentioned the number 1 biggest factor to building the crowds (both in Wellington., Home/Away  and Away) is winning consistently. Our results in Home/Away games have been very good oddly enough and the reasons for that I have never been able to put a finger on as we have beaten our share of "star teams" home/away (Brisbane, Victory, Adelaide).

For me, the biggest frustration is being told by the club, if we don't get the crowds in Wellington, more games are going away, but the ability to influence crowds (through performance) lies pretty much solely with the club.

Like many here I have dragged and encouraged all manner of different people to come along to games at various times, I guess over the years it must be in excess of 50 "non footballing people" along to games only to be served up with what has often been  pretty dire performance. It was certainly easier in the Fortress Westpac days when even though the footy may not have been terrific, games usually had a fair bit more excitement to them. Rose tinted Glasses? Maybe. I don't really know, I just do know that it is harder to get non footballing people along than what it was when we used to perform pretty well at home on a consistent basis. 

I know the club say marketing doesn't really work and they will have the figures to back that up I am sure, but marketing is more than sticking up a few Posters. Take last week for example, the Nix did a player appearance at McDonalds in Hamilton and turned up with Mambo and Ben Liftin. In all honesty why even bother?

It is increasingly rare players make "appearances" anymore. It was a regular thing for them to be making appearances at Ryos or Queensgate or Porirua or Midland Park. 

Even little things such as goal scoring celebrations (and I know we don't score as many knowadays) but if a goal was scored at the Fever end it was always celebrated with the fever right in that corner and on one memorable occasion Ifill ran 120 metres to do so. Just little things I know, but as someone who does take kids along, they love that shark and to be honest everyone does. It was that sort of thing that set the Nix apart from every of sports team in NZ in the early days

I bit of a ramble I know, and I accept the reasons for the travelling circus, and while the club are doing many things right  it is often the small, stuff that helps create a difference

Phoenix Academy
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over 16 years

Foundation member, season ticket holder and get to go to 4 home games this season being a mix of 'nix playing out of town and missing 3! games because I'm camping for 10 days in Jan.

Shark happens, nothing's perfect, the FFA and Fox suck, the sun will rise tomorrow, death, taxes.....what else? :)

WeeNix
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I wonder whether sponsors here are just so used to the like's of the All Blacks and Black caps taking matches around the country that they expect the Nix to do the same. Even Super rugby sides have the odd home 'away'.

I think 2 games 'away', say in Christchurch and Auckland, would be fair. 5 is insulting to the wellington/lower north Island fans who turn up every home match.

Starting XI
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2ndBest wrote:
  • FFA want us to broaden our appeal to the rest of the country. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was a requirement of our licence extensions. A second NZ club isn’t likely in the near future, so they see us a club for the whole nation.
    • By broadening the appeal to the rest of the country they are diluting the wellington based support
  • There are more Phoenix fans outside of Wellington than in it. That’s pretty telling. And to get Sky to pay more for the rights, and thus get FFA off our backs, we need Aucklanders to watch. And they are more likely to watch if they feel a greater connection to the club. We need a presence in Auckland.
    • Why don't large numbers of these fans turn up to many of the games then? Sky should have nothing to do with the club, it is the FFA's responsibility. None of the Australian clubs negotiate with FOX.
  • Phoenix make significantly more money from each home away game than they do at Westpac. Unless we have owners that are willing to throw significant amounts of money down the drain, the club needs to break even. Like it or not, away games is part of that mix.
    • They took on the club knowing that they would lose money, they are the very successful businessmen, if their business plan is not working, surely that is their fault. If one of their other businesses was failing, they wouldn't hesitate about bringing in the right personel & doing the right marketing to turn the company around!
    •  
    • Most company’s head office are based in Auckland. Again, to help the club break even, you need to be responsive to your sponsor. Especially given Huawei is giving the club far more than any sponsor has in the past.
    • Wellington Phoenix Head Office is in .......?
  • Let’s not forget the Kingz played a number of games around the country, so this is not exactly a new thing. 
    • How did that work out for them?
  • It’s not as easy to say that marketing will grow the crowds in Wellington. The club has stated in the past that when they have done far more marketing, there is very little, if any, return. 
    • That indicates that the marketing was ineffectual, more a reflection on the advertising company than the Phoenix Everyone know that New Zealand loves a bandwagon, so the biggest influence on crowds is having a winning team. Just look at the Hurricanes. Their crowds weren’t much better than ours two season until they started winning. It wasn’t to do with marketing.
    • Having a winning team is quite critical, but even when we get a winning team we do not have a run of games to drive the momentum. Or when we do get a run of games at home there are 3 games in 8 days!

That’s a unique set of circumstances. So if the toss up is between the current model, and having all games in Wellington where there is a decent chance of the owners giving up or the FFA folding us, then I know which I prefer. 

I agree with you, in that I don't want the Phoenix to fold, but there appears to be NO consideration for the fans that currently DO go to the games. It's almost as if the club blame us for not bringing more people with us! It is their business & they can do what the f**k they want with it, & I'm entitled to have my opinion. (Unless it gets deleted !)

Marquee
5.3K
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9.5K
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over 12 years

sthn.jeff wrote:

2ndBest wrote:

I feel like this same argument comes up every season. I understand the frustrations, but there is a bit of context that some people seem to ignore or forget.

  • I think I’m right in saying that Westpac is the most used stadium in New Zealand so ground unavailable is always going to be an issue. Even if the Phoenix wanted to play all games at home, it would be incredibly difficult. Throw in multiuse grounds in Aus and around NZ, and it’s impossible to get a perfect draw. FFA don’t exactly help and Fox pretty much have veto rights (notice how we don’t have our usual 5pm kick off slots this year? Safe to assume that Fox want a better timeslot in Aus)
  • FFA want us to broaden our appeal to the rest of the country. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was a requirement of our licence extensions. A second NZ club isn’t likely in the near future, so they see us a club for the whole nation.
  • There are more Phoenix fans outside of Wellington than in it. That’s pretty telling. And to get Sky to pay more for the rights, and thus get FFA off our backs, we need Aucklanders to watch. And they are more likely to watch if they feel a greater connection to the club. We need a presence in Auckland.
  • Phoenix make significantly more money from each home away game than they do at Westpac. Unless we have owners that are willing to throw significant amounts of money down the drain, the club needs to break even. Like it or not, away games is part of that mix.
  • Most company’s head office are based in Auckland. Again, to help the club break even, you need to be responsive to your sponsor. Especially given Huawei is giving the club far more than any sponsor has in the past.
  • Let’s not forget the Kingz played a number of games around the country, so this is not exactly a new thing.
  • It’s not as easy to say that marketing will grow the crowds in Wellington. The club has stated in the past that when they have done far more marketing, there is very little, if any, return. Everyone know that New Zealand loves a bandwagon, so the biggest influence on crowds is having a winning team. Just look at the Hurricanes. Their crowds weren’t much better than ours two season until they started winning. It wasn’t to do with marketing.

That’s a unique set of circumstances. So if the toss up is between the current model, and having all games in Wellington where there is a decent chance of the owners giving up or the FFA folding us, then I know which I prefer. 

Agree entirely Dale.  

While the travelling circus is pretty much inevitable given the current set of circumstances, there are of course downsides to this, not least of which is a disgruntled local loyal fan base and this year it is worse with the returfing, and in other years we have had other events such as the Cricket World Cup.

As you mentioned the number 1 biggest factor to building the crowds (both in Wellington., Home/Away  and Away) is winning consistently. Our results in Home/Away games have been very good oddly enough and the reasons for that I have never been able to put a finger on as we have beaten our share of "star teams" home/away (Brisbane, Victory, Adelaide).

For me, the biggest frustration is being told by the club, if we don't get the crowds in Wellington, more games are going away, but the ability to influence crowds (through performance) lies pretty much solely with the club.

Like many here I have dragged and encouraged all manner of different people to come along to games at various times, I guess over the years it must be in excess of 50 "non footballing people" along to games only to be served up with what has often been  pretty dire performance. It was certainly easier in the Fortress Westpac days when even though the footy may not have been terrific, games usually had a fair bit more excitement to them. Rose tinted Glasses? Maybe. I don't really know, I just do know that it is harder to get non footballing people along than what it was when we used to perform pretty well at home on a consistent basis. 

I know the club say marketing doesn't really work and they will have the figures to back that up I am sure, but marketing is more than sticking up a few Posters. Take last week for example, the Nix did a player appearance at McDonalds in Hamilton and turned up with Mambo and Ben Liftin. In all honesty why even bother?

It is increasingly rare players make "appearances" anymore. It was a regular thing for them to be making appearances at Ryos or Queensgate or Porirua or Midland Park. 

Even little things such as goal scoring celebrations (and I know we don't score as many knowadays) but if a goal was scored at the Fever end it was always celebrated with the fever right in that corner and on one memorable occasion Ifill ran 120 metres to do so. Just little things I know, but as someone who does take kids along, they love that shark and to be honest everyone does. It was that sort of thing that set the Nix apart from every of sports team in NZ in the early days

I bit of a ramble I know, and I accept the reasons for the travelling circus, and while the club are doing many things right  it is often the small, stuff that helps create a difference

The problem too is that if we do have a good result at home and casuals want to come back there isn't a game for so long they forget again. Happened last year after that 4-2 game against Adelaide at the height of the save the Nix campaign. I knew heaps of randoms who went to that and were super stoked but the next game in Wellington was like a month later and their initial interest had petered off again.

I think I'd be happy if there were 2 travelling circus games a season, one in Auckland, one in Christchurch, both around the xmas/NY period when there's no one in Wellington anyway.

I'd also like to see Wellington only memberships - they have a northern one but the generic season ticket seems to be based on the assumption that you can travel to other cities for games multiple times a season, which is only true for some people and obviously has a massive cost associated with it anyway, so getting a slightly cheaper price ticket is hardly a game changer anyway.

Marquee
5.3K
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9.5K
·
over 12 years

Kiwi Hatter wrote:

2ndBest wrote:
  • FFA want us to broaden our appeal to the rest of the country. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was a requirement of our licence extensions. A second NZ club isn’t likely in the near future, so they see us a club for the whole nation.
    • By broadening the appeal to the rest of the country they are diluting the wellington based support
  • There are more Phoenix fans outside of Wellington than in it. That’s pretty telling. And to get Sky to pay more for the rights, and thus get FFA off our backs, we need Aucklanders to watch. And they are more likely to watch if they feel a greater connection to the club. We need a presence in Auckland.
    • Why don't large numbers of these fans turn up to many of the games then? Sky should have nothing to do with the club, it is the FFA's responsibility. None of the Australian clubs negotiate with FOX.
  • Phoenix make significantly more money from each home away game than they do at Westpac. Unless we have owners that are willing to throw significant amounts of money down the drain, the club needs to break even. Like it or not, away games is part of that mix.
    • They took on the club knowing that they would lose money, they are the very successful businessmen, if their business plan is not working, surely that is their fault. If one of their other businesses was failing, they wouldn't hesitate about bringing in the right personel & doing the right marketing to turn the company around!
    •  
    • Most company’s head office are based in Auckland. Again, to help the club break even, you need to be responsive to your sponsor. Especially given Huawei is giving the club far more than any sponsor has in the past.
    • Wellington Phoenix Head Office is in .......?
  • Let’s not forget the Kingz played a number of games around the country, so this is not exactly a new thing. 
    • How did that work out for them?
  • It’s not as easy to say that marketing will grow the crowds in Wellington. The club has stated in the past that when they have done far more marketing, there is very little, if any, return. 
    • That indicates that the marketing was ineffectual, more a reflection on the advertising company than the Phoenix Everyone know that New Zealand loves a bandwagon, so the biggest influence on crowds is having a winning team. Just look at the Hurricanes. Their crowds weren’t much better than ours two season until they started winning. It wasn’t to do with marketing.
    • Having a winning team is quite critical, but even when we get a winning team we do not have a run of games to drive the momentum. Or when we do get a run of games at home there are 3 games in 8 days!

That’s a unique set of circumstances. So if the toss up is between the current model, and having all games in Wellington where there is a decent chance of the owners giving up or the FFA folding us, then I know which I prefer. 

I agree with you, in that I don't want the Phoenix to fold, but there appears to be NO consideration for the fans that currently DO go to the games. It's almost as if the club blame us for not bringing more people with us! It is their business & they can do what the f**k they want with it, & I'm entitled to have my opinion. (Unless it gets deleted !)

So much that last bit Hatter.
Starting XI
480
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2.6K
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over 16 years

I'm hoping that Messers Dome, Morrison, et al, get to see these threads.

NZ_Dave- Is this part of your brief to give this feedback to the club?

Marquee
6.9K
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9.3K
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over 13 years

Doloras wrote:

I suppose I'll put in my 20c to start with - I do understand the anger that many Welly based fans feel at the idea of having to travel to their home games. I do agree that it is the Wellington Phoenix and not a "NZ" team - I am a Wellingtonian by heritage and I would have never supported the Knights. And we've rehearsed the financial/FFA arguments over and over again.

But now the anger has gotten to the point where it's almost as if Auckland-based fans in particular (there didn't seem to be a real issue with Christchurch games) are being made to feel unwelcome by some fans. As if proud Wellingtonianism means JAFA-bashing. I have actually been to every Auckland Nix game there ever was and quite frankly standing in the zone hearing chants about how much Auckland sucks (or "is bearable" at best) is unpleasant. This is of course why I stopped going to ACFC games because I was sick of the anti-Nix chants (though I hear that's not a big thing any more - haven't seen the Knitting Circle in a while).

I'm going to continue going to every Nix game in the hated sprawl, stand in the Zone and chant my head off, even if people look straight through me. And there are a lot of other people on this forum who do likewise. The Travelling Circus at least throws people like me a bone. End of rant.

What I've seen recently is an alarming trend all over social media of Aucklanders adopting an us vs them attitude and assuming that any comment made is against them when I don't think that's the case.  I haven't seen anything overtly anti Auckland on here at all.

Marquee
6.9K
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9.3K
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over 13 years

The fact is the sponsors want games in Auckland and this year was an unusual situation because the stadium was closed for a long period of time. As said above it's the busiest stadium in the country, and even though the Phoenix are the number one tennant they do not seem to get priority. 

Most years we will loose two games which is a necessary evil and probably a good thing to do now that the A-League is in expansion mode and there's the possibility of an Auckland team in several years. The only real solution to not loosing games to events like the cricket world cup and maintenance that is not favorable to the Phoenix is to get a second smaller stadium for the region, not going to happen in the medium term - so the Phoenix needs to try and flex their muscles with the stadium trust by being the biggest tenant.

@Kiwi Hatter as part of our negotiations with the FFA we asked to be able to negotiate the NZ tv rights.

Starting XI
480
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2.6K
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over 16 years

Ryan wrote:

What I've seen recently is an alarming trend all over social media of Aucklanders adopting an us vs them approach and assuming that any comment made is against them when I don't think that's the case.  I haven't seen anything overtly anti Auckland on here at all.

Steady on Ryan, you'll be accused of oppressing the minorities! 

Marquee
2.1K
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6.4K
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over 14 years

Ryan wrote:

The fact is the sponsors want games in Auckland and this year was an unusual situation because the stadium was closed for a long period of time. As said above it's the busiest stadium in the country, and even though the Phoenix are the number one tennant they do not seem to get priority. 

Most years we will loose two games which is a necessary evil and probably a good thing to do now that the A-League is in expansion mode and there's the possibility of an Auckland team in several years. The only real solution to not loosing games to events like the cricket world cup and maintenance that is not favorable to the Phoenix is to get a second smaller stadium for the region, not going to happen in the medium term - so the Phoenix needs to try and flex their muscles with the stadium trust by being the biggest tenant.

@Kiwi Hatter as part of our negotiations with the FFA we asked to be able to negotiate the NZ tv rights.

There will be a team in Alice Springs before there is another team in NZ
Marquee
6.9K
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over 13 years

Maybe, but you can't assume that.

Surge
·
Can I have some lungs please miss
1.1K
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7.5K
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over 16 years

Ryan wrote:

Maybe, but you can't assume that.

Yes you can.
Marquee
2.1K
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6.4K
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over 14 years

Surge wrote:

Ryan wrote:

Maybe, but you can't assume that.

Yes you can.

My balls on it
Marquee
6.9K
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9.3K
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over 13 years

You can't assume anything. Plan for the worst and all that.

Dinosaur Dave
250
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670
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over 12 years

Kiwi Hatter wrote:

I'm hoping that Messers Dome, Morrison, et al, get to see these threads.

NZ_Dave- Is this part of your brief to give this feedback to the club?

Can confirm. Even if you don't see me pop up in threads I do provide feedback on exactly this sort of stuff behind the scenes.

If you (or anyone) ever has stuff they think has been missed as well you are always welcome to email me too ([email protected])

Starting XI
480
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2.6K
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over 16 years

Nz_Dave wrote:

Kiwi Hatter wrote:

I'm hoping that Messers Dome, Morrison, et al, get to see these threads.

NZ_Dave- Is this part of your brief to give this feedback to the club?

Can confirm. Even if you don't see me pop up in threads I do provide feedback on exactly this sort of stuff behind the scenes.

If you (or anyone) ever has stuff they think has been missed as well you are always welcome to email me too ([email protected])

Perhaps with this being such a heated & important topic that people are VERY opinionated about (including myself!) what are the chances of having the club reply directly through the forum, TP used to be on here a lot, & he got a lot of respect for that. We have one meeting a year with the owners, that most people can't get to, so maybe some response from the club would be appreciated.  I'm pretty sure they haven't all traveled to Hamilton & Auckland!!!!!!!!

Appiah without the pace
6.4K
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19K
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over 16 years

Kiwi Hatter wrote:

Snip:

Sky aren't going to pay more for the rights unless more people watch us. For the future of the club, we can't just focus on Wellington. That's a reality. Pure and simple. 

Just about all clubs lose money in the A-league, so clearly it's not the club business model that's the problem. It's the business model of the league. Perhaps this will improve with the new TV deal. 

Fans in Auckland do turn up. More so than ones in Wellington. and yes that is the nature of one off games and having a bigger population.

The club has never said that current wellington fans are the problem. If we were getting 12K every week, this wouldn't be an issue. But for some reason, people who play and watch football, don't comes to games. That's the problem. I'm unconvinced that these people don't know the games are on. They just choose not to go. Maybe its EPL snobbery, maybe it's the stadium, maybe it's the cost, maybe it's the team. But marketing isn't a magic bullet. 

LG
Legend
5.5K
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23K
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over 16 years

There will be a meeting Hatter - in Auckland on Jan 1st at 7pm?? Sponsors  Will  attend .  Sorry but can't see the club's attitude  changing . 

Marquee
970
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6.5K
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over 11 years

Why peeps don't go -

EPL snobbery      2.5%

Stadium                7.5%

Cost                     10%

Weather                10%

Losing team          70%

imo of course.

The Travelling Circus - playing home games around NZ

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