A-league Expansion - Derbies

Just to throw the cat among the (native wood) pigeons, I would suggest that Christchurch would be a more viable city for a 2nd NZ franchise. Good size and shape stadium, and Cantabs seem to support their teams pretty fervently.

i think auckland city would be sitting mid table if they were in the a league right now

 Not with the import rules

only 5 in the starting lineup against hawkes bay i think. anyway would love to see an auckland side

In your dreams.

 I think N-Bomb was making the same point as you Leggy.

I believe another NZ franchise could find enough players to be competitive. Obviously you couldn't have just New Zealand stock but I do believe there is more depth in the NZ League than has been suggested in the past. Im in the belief that Clapham and a few other players are good enough (just not good enough to have an import slot at the Australian clubs). With decent import signings I think the real test would there be enough decent Australian players (who would probably have to make a big chunk of the team)?

Wanderers is an example it can be done but if I'm not mistaken I believe they were allowed an extra 2 imports this year.

The biggest problem for another NZ franchise is it would most likely come at the cost of an Australian Franchise. Eg Canberra, Wollongong or Tasmania (though I don't believe there is enough interest in Tasmania especially since the piopulation is split between to rivals towns which is partly why they haven't got an AFL team either)

It may not necessarily be the case. I'm sure that when the FFA look at expanding they will accept the best bids that meet their strategic plans. Another NZ team might not be best option in the next round of expansion, if a bid was put forward, but at some point I'm sure that it will be the best option at that time.

Most of the comments tweeted back to the post Aleague made about the story were negative.  Apparantely us sheep shagging moochers should stand on our own feet. 

That's like asuming some of the rampant idiocy posted on Facebook is indicative of the majority of Phoenix fans. 

All the reasonably intelligent A-League fans understand a viable club anywhere is better than no club, but those sort of articles only bring out responses from the ones with barely enough IQ to punch the keypad on a phone.

too true, internet warriors

You'd hit the same shit brick wall in Auckland if the team didnt make the top 6 in its debut season. A bottom of the table debut season like the Nix and it could be curtains.

Yeah, I think today's crowd hurts any thought of an Auckland franchise in the short term. But maybe if it was 'their team' they would still turn out. Still think 2020 is plausible ...

Real auckland?

That's a very Morganesque response :)

Funny how these articles either pop up before or after the Nix have played in Auckland

A-League growth to 12 teams in 2017 chance for creative thinking

How journalism works.

Whether it would work or not, ACFC's performance at the CWC would have to make the FFA -  and Fifa -  wonder why the hell there's no team from Auckland in the A-League.

Then if you look at last night's attendance, you know why

I just love having a game in Auckland every year as this is where I live.

But based on last nights pathetic turn out of 11,000 I really don't think they should come back. It really is disapointing that we can't even get 20,000 for a one of game where our results have been decent in prior games.

Wonder how many an Auckland A-League franchise playing an Oz team would attract to Westpac Stadium 4th time round.

That's hardly selling an Auckland side though Jerzy.

If 11k turn up the 4th time round for a single season game you'd be a very brave man to build a business case for an Auckland side needing 10k a match at North harbour.

Can I just point out that a new A-League franchise in Auckland is a completely different proposition from one-off games being played there by the Nix.

It's also a completely different proposition from either the Kingz or the Knights which both occurred pre-Nix and pre-the A-League becoming a much more high-profile and viable competition.

It's hard to predict what the right people might be able to build in Auckland in the current environment, but it definitely seems worth exploring further.

But if you've got a hardcore 6-7k within that 11k, similar to Wellington, then that is possibly a foundation worth building a business case around.

None of this comes for free though. If someone does it they are definitely going to have to build something up, rather than consistently get 15k crowds from the start.

if the side does well then the ceiling attendance for the big end of season games is a lot bigger than ours in Wellington too. So I think it's possible if you can get that core support (big if) and have confidence that the nz player base can grow to sustain two competitive teams. 

That's one of the reasons why our home/away game is worth having in Auckland toward the end of the season - if the nix are doing well then we can come out of it very well financially. Possibly worth a season or two of 11k crowds with a small loss?

C'mon News, you know as well as I do the business model has changed since the dark days of 10 years ago. TV income for one. Also, I'm not sure an Auckland team playing out of Nth Harbour would necessarily need 10K. Didn't Nth Harbour actually come more or less free when the Knights went there from Mt Smart?

Given one franchise isn't yet (nor has ever been) successful, what on earth makes people think a second one would work?... sure, things have changed over the last ten years but a lot of things haven't (like Auckland crowds, and stadium/s).

Let's get the Nix sorted out (ie: winning titles, getting good crowds, and being financially viable - oh, and having a licence) first before any pipe-dreams of a second club. As it stands, diluting our (NZ's) support/resources further would be the end of the Nix.

Dreaming. See you in 5-10 years (I hope).

chicken.

I would think that any organisation contemplating setting up an Auckland based A League franchise would back itself to be better marketed than the nix [well you'd hope they would]. that seems to be the crux of it for me, the lack of marketing success by the Nix. I put quite a wide definition on 'marketing' in that I include things like the use of a high profile marquee or guest player, active involvement with local football clubs, selling of corporate packages and sponsorships etc. To a degree you need to spend money to make money and I'm sure, somewhere in the world there are clubs that are doing a reasonable job of making money for their owners. There are so many factors that can help/inhibit profitability and the key is to minimise the things that haemorage [sp?] money. I'm not saying it would be easy but I wouldn't mind havign a crack at it if i was in a position to buy my way in.

Yes, but the FFA can't sell a game watched by 592 people.

The issues seem to be:

a) not enough player depth using NZ players to have two A-League teams as the foreign player rule would effect the ability to field a strong side from day dot

b) not enough crowd numbers to support the franchise/convince the FFA that it's a worthwhile venture

For what it's worth having been a season ticket holder at the Kingz, Warriors and Breakers if there was to be a new franchise in Auckland there is little point in putting a team in a big stadium if you are not prepared to spend money on the roster.

I know this is years off but if we were to be looking at this in say 5 years time I would love to see the new team based at Mt Smart with games typically scheduled for # 2 (would need a little bit of work on the pitch and a bit of infrastructure) but with the natural bowl shape and with the existing stand and the john walker lounge there is a pretty good foundation there.  Bigger games (such as the NZ derby) could be taken to Mt Smart # 1 of course.  Train is close - not really any bars that close which is a bit of a problem but that's not the end of the world.  Everyone who was coming from either Newmarket station could hop off the train at Ellerslie where there is several pubs and hop back on to get to the game.  The main drawcard for me is if you have a smaller stadium with a decent side you can sell out the place and make it a valuable item, if you were getting say 5 or 6k attendance (internet says #2 capacity seated is 10k which i find a little hard to believe) then you will have a good atmosphere, hirage of the venue will be stuff all and you can spend dollars on the squad or on a good match day experience.

Clearly at some point if things go well a bigger stadium would be needed - but I think putting a new team in a big stadium is the wrong way round to do it - start small and grow the team, grow the brand, and grow the support.

Isn't the Auckland plan to change Mt Smart to Speedway and therefore the use for football is not an option?

doubtful if the council even know the actual plan.. but yes that is one of the options - havn't seen how that might pan out.

If Mt Smart isn't an option - then how about Bill McKinley - capacity is ok, Train station close - parking is a pain and not sure artificial turf would get passed by the FFA at the moment.

Firstly, I agree with the point Jerzy was making re. a 4th expedition of an Auckland team to Wellington... the point being that maybe the gloss has worn off for an out of team franchise in a competitiuon the locals have no investment in. Perhaps it's not a good litmus paper test for an new Auckland franchise? Perhaps what is important is not how many people are attracted to attend a one off event in the week before Christmas with two significant other events on the same day, and poor whether to boot, but instead the size of the core support that could be generated and leveraged, and perhaps they are not the same things?

Secondly,

As Jerzy replied, chicken, egg.

PERHAPS an Auckland franchise, and a local rivalry, and increased media interest as a result, and increased profile might actually be what gets not just the Auckland franchise up over the hump, but also what it takes to take the Phoenix to the next level.

You might rebut this by saying "and perhaps not", but - take a look at what has happened in Sydney with local derbies and rivalry. Look at the crowds in Melbourne derbies too (too a lesser extent) and the Big Blue and Victory versus Adelaide games, and Sydney vs. CCM "derbies". 

Note: I am NOT saying this IS the magic bullet that will help over come ALL of the previous issues with Auckland teams.... but I do think it is hard to argue against the additional positive impact of having another "local" team and the associated rivalry. And remember, neither the Kingz or the Knights ever had a second NZ team and the associated rivalry and additional media coverage. So we have never tested this.

Thirdly, BUILD A PURPOSE BUILT NEW STADIUM for a new Auckland franchise. I agree - Mt. Smart #2 (and #1 for big games) is argubaly the best of any of the "existing infrastructure" models. But I think it could EASILY be bettered by building a purpose built stadium with an integtrated transport solution.

There are a number of places this could be done. 

Unfortunately the best one (Carlaw Park) has been wasted. Glen Innes, Panmure, Mt Wellington, Ellerslie, Onehunga, Penrose, Greenlane, Avondale, Sandringham/Morningside/St Lukes, Wynyard Quarter, Orakei, and a number of other places in the inner West and even the southern North Shore near ferry and bus lanes could potentially work (I accept the last is a stretch).

I don't know if Melbourne City or CCM could have survived without the extra people who come along for a derby. I guess the question is whether a not a Wellington-Auckland derby would capture people's imagination enough. Would that sort of derby get a crowd of 20k in Wellington? I'm not sure it would. An Auckland team would definitely lead to much more media coverage of the A-League. I think that is one hugely positive reason to play the one off game in Auckland.

Owairaka Park, Mt Albert.

That would have worse transport options than Eden Park wouldn't it?