Opinion Privileges revoked
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Jerzy Merino wrote:

According to 'those in the know' Payne was pocketing 3k per week captaining Eastern Subs. Nice.

What the fudging fudge?!? Even if that was only during National League season that's getting towards A-League wages.

No wonder our top domestic footballers don't think it's worth while trying out for a professional gig - and no wonder half of them wouldn't be fussed if NZ's only (openly) pro club went under. But they shouldn't sneer at the Nix and those who do chase the dream.

But to forestall moderator action: let's move "Shamateurism in NZ Football" to its own thread.

Early retirement
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almost 17 years

Jerzy Merino wrote:

Well as well as ego polishing there is the 700k prize for coming first to consider, don't forget.

Suppose it's easy to gamble on that prize money when it's not your money you are gambling. 

Is it recycling if the money has been used for gambling before?

Opinion Privileges revoked
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So now we know what ESAFC are paying some members of their National League team - I assume that payments occurring entirely legally at ACFC are of similar magnitude? Any information on TW?

Look, I don't object in principle to top domestic footballers getting "semi-pro" wages. But in that case the HandyPrem (as well as NRFL Premier? Central League? SI League) should be officially declared semi-pro and regulated as such.

Woof Woof
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Doloras wrote:
 

Look, I don't object in principle to top domestic footballers getting "semi-pro" wages. But in that case the HandyPrem (as well as NRFL Premier? Central League? SI League) should be officially declared semi-pro and regulated as such.

Do that, and a large source of funding for the 'wages' dries up. So we end up with this charade.

Legend
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Doloras wrote:

Jerzy Merino wrote:

According to 'those in the know' Payne was pocketing 3k per week captaining Eastern Subs. Nice.

What the fudging fudge?!? Even if that was only during National League season that's getting towards A-League wages.

No wonder our top domestic footballers don't think it's worth while trying out for a professional gig - and no wonder half of them wouldn't be fussed if NZ's only (openly) pro club went under. But they shouldn't sneer at the Nix and those who do chase the dream.

But to forestall moderator action: let's move "Shamateurism in NZ Football" to its own thread.

How many weeks?

One in a million
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How many NZ amateur clubs have gone under because of player payments, lots I suspect. By gone under, I mean cease to exist or drop out of high ranked leagues.

Starting XI
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el grapadura wrote:

Doloras wrote:
 

Look, I don't object in principle to top domestic footballers getting "semi-pro" wages. But in that case the HandyPrem (as well as NRFL Premier? Central League? SI League) should be officially declared semi-pro and regulated as such.

Do that, and a large source of funding for the 'wages' dries up. So we end up with this charade.

also the Nix argument for being in Australia disappears ie FIFA allow them to play in Oz as the NZ league has been declared an amateur league, change that and the Nix can't play in A-League (may not have a choice in 2 years anyway)

Marquee
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How many NZ amateur clubs have gone under because of player payments, lots I suspect. By gone under, I mean cease to exist or drop out of high ranked leagues.

Two of the best for starters. Mount Wellington. Gisborne City. And I totally forgive them because of what they gave back.

Opinion Privileges revoked
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over 14 years

I may sound like a stick-up-the-arse scold for this, but one of my principles is that there's no such thing as a free lunch. A free lunch is precisely what the shamateur top-clubs are getting by using trust monies to pay players (and possibly WPFC are doing the same thing with their academy, as Liam Hyslop revealed, but that's outside the current terms of discussion). This is neither honest nor sustainable - especially if, as it appears, there is a lack of top Kiwi players pushing on to real professional football because the shamateur levels are doing very well for them.

Marquee
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Hey, Dolores is our new TerminatorX!

Opinion Privileges revoked
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WeeNix
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Jerzy Merino wrote:

How many NZ amateur clubs have gone under because of player payments, lots I suspect. By gone under, I mean cease to exist or drop out of high ranked leagues.

Two of the best for starters. Mount Wellington. Gisborne City. And I totally forgive them because of what they gave back.

Wellington United (WDU) and Stop Out who came close to folding at various stages

Early retirement
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almost 17 years
Marquee
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Some of these lads are going to be PO if the IRD man pays them a visit about unreported earnings he has heard they may be receiving.

Opinion Privileges revoked
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I doubt that any of these players are cheating the taxman in any way. It would be the clubs, if anyone, liable for handing out monies in return for fictitious services rendered.

Marquee
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Sorry Doloras i would think you are kidding yourself if you think all payments are legit.If so its probably the only sport in NZ doing it.

Starting XI
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whatever wrote:

Jerzy Merino wrote:

How many NZ amateur clubs have gone under because of player payments, lots I suspect. By gone under, I mean cease to exist or drop out of high ranked leagues.

Two of the best for starters. Mount Wellington. Gisborne City. And I totally forgive them because of what they gave back.

Wellington United (WDU) and Stop Out who came close to folding at various stages

around about 50% of the clubs that have played in the National League since 1970 have either folded (Gisborne City, Dunedin City, Courier Rangers) or merged (Mt Wellington, WDU, Blockhouse Bay, Nelson Utd).

Of the ones that have survived, alot like Stop Out, Manurewa, Eastern Suburbs have had periods where they have struggled and come close to merging or going bust

Cock
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Doloras wrote:

I may sound like a stick-up-the-arse scold for this, but one of my principles is that there's no such thing as a free lunch. A free lunch is precisely what the shamateur top-clubs are getting by using trust monies to pay players (and possibly WPFC are doing the same thing with their academy, as Liam Hyslop revealed, but that's outside the current terms of discussion). This is neither honest nor sustainable - especially if, as it appears, there is a lack of top Kiwi players pushing on to real professional football because the shamateur levels are doing very well for them.

This is the Payne/Howieson argument yes? If they were not being paid well by ACFC/Eastern Suburbs, they would be having a crack at the Phoenix
Starting XI
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over 16 years

Doloras wrote:

I doubt that any of these players are cheating the taxman in any way. It would be the clubs, if anyone, liable for handing out monies in return for fictitious services rendered.

As was covered by Liam Hyslop in his article about the Nix academy, often the services players are getting paid for are things like coaching. Whether the wages they get for that work are justified is another matter.

WeeNix
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almost 7 years

If they were to implement wage restrictions,  clubs will find a way around it. I know for a fact there are lower league clubs (ie non-handa) that have players on the books who are paid decent salaries, despite being technically non-salary players.

Opinion Privileges revoked
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Well then, if these clubs are paying players, they're semi-pro clubs and they should pull the pokies funding. Harsh but trying to have it both ways is deeply dishonest.

First Team Squad
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Some of the money flying around is bonkers, in Wellington you only have to look at a club like NW and ask how they've ended up with a couple of national league players, several CL players, an ex All White and an NZFC coach. You can bet they didn't just "ask nicely" if they wanted to come and join their club.

Opinion Privileges revoked
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I just don't see how it's sustainable that you can get better paid in an "amateur" league than you can in a pro league.

(Ha ha, I haven't checked it out but I doubt much of this money flying around goes to top-ranked women players... maybe a bit of it does, I don't know.)

Woof Woof
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Doloras wrote:

I just don't see how it's sustainable that you can get better paid in an "amateur" league than you can in a pro league.

(Ha ha, I haven't checked it out but I doubt much of this money flying around goes to top-ranked women players... maybe a bit of it does, I don't know.)

Well, it's not sustainable. The business model basically consists of getting funding from pokies trusts, and the CWC. If CWC goes the way FIFA is suggesting it might, that could prove to be the first nail on this particular coffin.

Marquee
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over 11 years

el grapadura wrote:

Doloras wrote:

I just don't see how it's sustainable that you can get better paid in an "amateur" league than you can in a pro league.

(Ha ha, I haven't checked it out but I doubt much of this money flying around goes to top-ranked women players... maybe a bit of it does, I don't know.)

Well, it's not sustainable. The business model basically consists of getting funding from pokies trusts, and the CWC. If CWC goes the way FIFA is suggesting it might, that could prove to be the first nail on this particular coffin.

"Sustainable" and "football" aren't the best of bedfellows. Just how "sustainable" are half the clubs in the A-League? In any league? In almost any league you care to think of much of the dosh sustaining many clubs depends pretty much on the whims of just one wealthy backer. Some business model.

Starting XI
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Doloras wrote:

I just don't see how it's sustainable that you can get better paid in an "amateur" league than you can in a pro league.

(Ha ha, I haven't checked it out but I doubt much of this money flying around goes to top-ranked women players... maybe a bit of it does, I don't know.)

you'd be surprised, theres a club in Auckland that's known for paying players and apparently their top paid player is a woman

thing that gets me about all this is that people do seem surprised that this happens, its been going on for years

I was speaking to an ex National League coach the other week and he told me when he first got his job with the club he was officially a butcher - as thats who paid his wages!

Marquee
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I got paid playing Central League Div 2 in the early '70's! Not enough tho.

Opinion Privileges revoked
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over 14 years

Let's try another tack - if young players with talent can make a living in the HandyPrem or even the NRFL, what's the point of the Phoenix at all?

Woof Woof
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over 16 years

Jerzy Merino wrote:

el grapadura wrote:

Doloras wrote:

I just don't see how it's sustainable that you can get better paid in an "amateur" league than you can in a pro league.

(Ha ha, I haven't checked it out but I doubt much of this money flying around goes to top-ranked women players... maybe a bit of it does, I don't know.)

Well, it's not sustainable. The business model basically consists of getting funding from pokies trusts, and the CWC. If CWC goes the way FIFA is suggesting it might, that could prove to be the first nail on this particular coffin.

"Sustainable" and "football" aren't the best of bedfellows. Just how "sustainable" are half the clubs in the A-League? In any league? In almost any league you care to think of much of the dosh sustaining many clubs depends pretty much on the whims of just one wealthy backer. Some business model.

There is a significant difference between being a professional outfit that aims to raise revenue through commercial activity, and one that depends on dodgy payouts from gaming trusts.

Marquee
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Also as a player, if you truly want to be a professional, you've got to be and work in a professional environment.  How many of the Handy stars (I can name a few, but not many), actually left our shores to take up a professional contract abroad?

Getting paid to play and being a professional footballer are not exactly the same in my view, especially if you consider one's career as a whole.

Opinion Privileges revoked
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That's the essential argument, really: not necessary a moral one about rorting pokie trusts, but one that "shamateurism" rather than open semi-professionalism is, to coin a phrase, Not In The Wider Interests of Football.

Phoenix Academy
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Hudson in his time here bemoaned the fact that young players these days would rather spend a summer drinking and at festivals than training and trying to be a 'professional' footballer

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/nz-teams/8832...

Being a professional footballer is a full-time job, just like my job is full-time. I can have holidays and drink etc, but then I don't have to watch my fitness, weight, skill etc. Part of a professional footballer's job description would be to watch what they eat, drink, do in the      off-season.

It tends to be skewed to the younger age bracket too, so if you want to make the step into being a professional player then you need to decide before getting through those tricky teenage brain years. It can be hard for a 16/17 year old to equate the effort that is needed to give yourself the best chance you can. 

Good luck to those who give it a good shot though. 

First Team Squad
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Guess it doesn't help that the structure of the winter/summer leagues means players are playing 11-ish months of the year.

NZF turn a blind eye because they don't want (and aren't capable of) being asked to sort out a semi-pro/pro league.

Starting XI
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Balbi wrote:

Guess it doesn't help that the structure of the winter/summer leagues means players are playing 11-ish months of the year.

NZF turn a blind eye because they don't want (and aren't capable of) being asked to sort out a semi-pro/pro league.

even when we did have a semi-pro league (ie before the Kingz \ Knights \ Nix) the same things went on, players paid via sponsors, Tobacco money payed for a lot of it, that got canned and Pokie money took over, difference now with Pokie money is it is very regulated and the audits are reasonably tough - people slag the clubs for "rorting" the system, but pretty much all are doing whats with in the law - its not their fault the law is an ass.

But you do have to show that you are spending money on what you say you are these days, theres no getting a $200k grant for lights and instead buying a box of lightbulbs ala Mt Maunganui!

changing our league status from amateur to semi pro will change nothing and all it will do is make life harder for the Phoenix

Early retirement
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almost 17 years

...and for kids hoping to go to US Colleges.

WeeNix
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almost 7 years

Doloras wrote:

Let's try another tack - if young players with talent can make a living in the HandyPrem or even the NRFL, what's the point of the Phoenix at all?

I'd say a tougher competition on a bigger stage. Ultimately, one would think/hope that would make them a better overall player - making them more attractive to bigger clubs. 

Opinion Privileges revoked
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over 14 years

... but if our best young players won't take on the Nix challenge because shamateur football is better paid?

How does this work in Aussie? The various NPLs are semi-pro, or have I got that wrong

Marquee
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over 13 years

Aussie NPL is semi pro at div 1 and 2 in NSW/Vic; and NPL 1 in Qld, SA, WA; and players earn way more than in NZ. 

Season runs March to September, with pre season kicking off in November. Means that it’s tricky but possible for some to do Aussie winter NPL & summer NZ Handy ( only de Jong that I can think of at present) but NZF plans for national club league will change the timing and players will generally have to make a choice. 

Pokie money here too; with some football clubs a sub section of large community clubs. 

Most pro rugby league clubs generate huge revenues through their one arm bandits in the licensed leagues club. Interestingly the stink around gambling money funding clubs has led to well resourced, highly professional Aussie Rules clubs with other revenue streams like Collingwoid, Melbourne Demons, Geelong and North Melbourne saying they will sell their pokie assets (though North took a principled stand years ago). 

WeeNix
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almost 7 years

Doloras wrote:

... but if our best young players won't take on the Nix challenge because shamateur football is better paid?

How does this work in Aussie? The various NPLs are semi-pro, or have I got that wrong

Put it this way, would you take a significant pay cut because you've been told you can potentially get better opportunities at another company? If you leave your role, there's also added the chance you won't be as pivotal at the new company (i.e there's a good chance they'll get benched/have to play U23's) so you won't make the same money for a few years/at all. 

You've got to decide what you want in life - People are reluctant to change and often content with the bare minimum.

One in a million
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almost 17 years

The Nix only want players who will push themselves to the limit. If a player is content playing lower level football then cool, but their attitude wont be right for the Nix anyhow.

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