Starting XI
6.7K
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4.5K
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over 9 years

Hi guys, I've checked the forum and couldn't find another thread relating to legal issues so I thought I'd give this a crack. Feel free to raise your own legal issues too, although I would suggest being careful about releasing specific details...

I'm sure there are some YF faithful out there that work in the field or have a sound understanding of legal situations, who could possibly help out. 

I wanted to start off anyway regarding a case that I'm currently fighting with my employer that's been going on for a month or so - I want to state right now that I will not be giving out specific information relating to my employer or specific details about my case because a) I'm not willing to jeopardise my case; and b) I'm after general advice that I may have perhaps missed so that I can pass on to lawyers who are currently representing me.

Anyway, just after the new year I was the victim of a workplace incident which resulted in a significant amount of time off work, and a long recovery process, with no promise of recovering fully (as in recovering to a standard that I enjoyed before the incident). I have absolutely had no problems with ACC who were very helpful to me and have been in constant contact which is pretty much above and beyond what I had expected so that was a massive positive for me, as I have heard some absolute horror stories which put the sharks up me about having to deal with them.

Over the past several weeks I have been eased back into work and have worked my way up to 'full duties' albeit with a bit of residual pain. Lo and behold, once I worked up to this, not long afterwards I received a letter from HR advising in no uncertain terms that I was in serious trouble in relation to this incident as well as several other incidents which they have cobbled together as they apparently are loosely connected to my serious injury (Hence engaging my lawyer). I was presented this letter and a some evidence for one of these issues and this is where I have gone to my lawyer.

They advised me that the letter from HR was missing key evidence/statements and investigation reports for several of these other 'issues' and asked me to go back to them to obtain this so they could go over the case in full. Well this is where it gets interesting - I asked for this information a couple of weeks ago and at the time the conversation became very heated, basically to the point where they intimated that I was clutching at straws (which has pissed me off highly!). All I was after was information that both myself and my lawyer know is highly relevant to the case - this was not forthcoming. Furthermore, several days later they withdrew the disciplinary meeting, giving me a letter to inform me of this and that they will be in touch about moving forward.

By now I became highly suspicious. I have since obtained a physical record of all site wide incidents within timeframes stated in my letter  (printouts and several screenshots all of which are timestamped) I was specifically looking for dates that involved me, and surprise surprise there is nothing documented, yet I've supposedly committed some serious offences. 

So now, on the advice of my father (familiar with the process) and my lawyer, they suspect my employer may be covering for things on their end that are not entirely above board. This includes possibly not filing a Notifiable Injury notice with Worksafe NZ, which if true, will be a story worth taking to the media, or so I've been told. I only started putting two and two together over a period of several days, as I asked for copies of a Worksafe report but they were not forthcoming. I have since contacted Worksafe about this case directly and am currently waiting for a response from them.

Anyway, basically that's where I'm at so far, I would appreciate any feedback, knowledge or other things I should be looking for that will assist my case. I've covered off procedures/documentation/site inductions/changes of process with the lawyer too and that will likely be raised with my employer if/when they try to continue their case against me. Even if they don't, I'm pretty certain that I will be heading down the road of a Personal Grievance as I feel I've been made to look an absolute fool out of this, and I won't tolerate that.

Basically after the past 12 months I have had, I have nothing more to lose and I will fight this until the bitter end. 

Thanks in advance for any help or advice given. Sorry if it's a bit of a read also. 

Marquee
300
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5K
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almost 17 years

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

I hope you are emotionally strong and have good support around you as this must be a difficult and unpleasant situation.

Maybe when it is all said and done you may consider a fresh start in another company?

Don't let this consume you.

Good luck.

Starting XI
6.7K
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4.5K
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over 9 years

Sanday wrote:

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

I hope you are emotionally strong and have good support around you as this must be a difficult and unpleasant situation.

Maybe when it is all said and done you may consider a fresh start in another company?

Don't let this consume you.

Good luck.

Thankyou, that means alot. I'm not going to lie, I've been to some dark places over this. According to my family and my closest workmates I have changed completely, and deep down I know this. I often sleep at sporadic times, I hardly eat or if I do it's at fudgeed up times and workmates have pulled me aside to ask if I'm alright because my mood and change in mannerisms has become noticeable with them, which is really getting to me even more.

I do have a strong team of advisors who are waiting on a reply from my employer but even they think the case against me is total bullshark and they are surprised and somewhat pissed that a case has been brought against me on such weak evidence. At the moment they suspect Worksafe has no idea of whats happened, based on my dealings with the employer, which in itself is a very serious offence on their behalf, with fines into the millions of dollars if they haven't followed the proper processes, as well as personal fines in the 10's to 100's of thousands of dollars + jailtime too, so of course that's causing some serious tensions as it is. I have since taken it upon myself to notify Worksafe directly and am hoping to sit down with one of their representatives over the coming weeks to discuss my case. According to the worksafe investigations page there has been nothing lodged with them in terms of investigations since the start of the year for my region and my field of work, which has raised eyebrows with my lawyers and my family, although I will await an official reply from Worksafe before taking the issue further...

I'll be sure to update on here when new information becomes available, as by all accounts it looks like I'll be going to war ovee this.

Marquee
2.7K
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7.2K
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almost 17 years

Sorry to hear about all of this.
From what you've said it sounds like your employer has got several things wrong, including failing to notify the regulator of a notifiable incident and potentially breaching the Employment Relations Act if they began disciplinary proceedings without just cause or following due process

I would strongly advice to document EVERYTHING and obtain as much official info as you can. You've done well obtaining the incidents log. And what about your medical records? Do they state the location and possibly dynamic of where the accident happened?

I would gather all this information, including letters from HR, emails (create a pst file and scan, print copies for yourself) and take evetything to your lawyer. Then you'll probably have a good case for a PG. If you're a union member, speak with your union as well.

Obviously though in these situations you might also want to explore new employment opportunities... Working in a place like that is probably not good for you, and if you go down the road of a PG you'll burn some bridges.
Hope it all works out for you. Kia kaha!

Legend
8K
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14K
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over 16 years

If there's a positive to take out of this, at least ACC have done their job and looked after you - so much noise that they never pay out and never put the customer first.

Sounds like you're doing everything else correct, but if I was you I'd be looking for employment elsewhere, staying at a place you've just launced a PG against wont be fun.

Marquee
2.1K
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8.2K
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about 17 years

YoungHeart wrote:

Sanday wrote:

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

I hope you are emotionally strong and have good support around you as this must be a difficult and unpleasant situation.

Maybe when it is all said and done you may consider a fresh start in another company?

Don't let this consume you.

Good luck.

Thankyou, that means alot. I'm not going to lie, I've been to some dark places over this. According to my family and my closest workmates I have changed completely, and deep down I know this. I often sleep at sporadic times, I hardly eat or if I do it's at fudgeed up times and workmates have pulled me aside to ask if I'm alright because my mood and change in mannerisms has become noticeable with them, which is really getting to me even more.

I do have a strong team of advisors who are waiting on a reply from my employer but even they think the case against me is total bullshark and they are surprised and somewhat pissed that a case has been brought against me on such weak evidence. At the moment they suspect Worksafe has no idea of whats happened, based on my dealings with the employer, which in itself is a very serious offence on their behalf, with fines into the millions of dollars if they haven't followed the proper processes, as well as personal fines in the 10's to 100's of thousands of dollars + jailtime too, so of course that's causing some serious tensions as it is. I have since taken it upon myself to notify Worksafe directly and am hoping to sit down with one of their representatives over the coming weeks to discuss my case. According to the worksafe investigations page there has been nothing lodged with them in terms of investigations since the start of the year for my region and my field of work, which has raised eyebrows with my lawyers and my family, although I will await an official reply from Worksafe before taking the issue further...

I'll be sure to update on here when new information becomes available, as by all accounts it looks like I'll be going to war ovee this.

1.  Employment law is as much about process as anything.  An employer can be right (not saying they are) but lose against an employee because they got the process wrong.  Make sure every interaction between you and the employer is documented.

2.  Make sure you get good advice from a specialist employment lawyer (not a generalist who does a bit of employment).

3.  Make a call on whether you are willing to go back and work for that company.  Accept even if you may want to you may not be able to get your job back even if cleared (although you may have a constructive dismissal case).

4.  Don't underestimate how emotionally draining litigation is.  Factor that into how much you are willing to accept in a financial settlement to avoid going all the way with a personal grievance.  You should focus on moving on with your life.

5.  I would avoid the media for now, that's unlikely to help you get what you want and will only make them more defensive.

Sucks, but don't let them bully you!

Chant Savant
2.5K
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12K
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almost 17 years

Sorry to hear about this YoungHeart.

As somebody who had an employment dispute with their employer in the past I can tell you that it is horrible. Chances are that HR are playing hard ball to get you to move on without fighting. Like @james dean said above, be prepared to accept a settlement and make sure you have an amount you would be happy to accept.

In my case I decided that I would be happy to accept the amount of lost wages from the time my contract was terminated until the time of settlement. I could have easily pursued other avenues (ie Media - this would have been fun given the company in question has a long standing relationship with a major sports team in NZ) but you need to assess whether the fallout from such measures will affect you detrimentally.  

HR people know how to play the game and they also know the law. AS I alluded to earlier, they are probably expecting you to walk away without a fight. My advice is to speak to an Employment Law specialist and see what they might say. 

Lastly, DO NOT MAKE IT PERSONAL!!! Keep relations with your employer open and civil and remain strong and calm in all communication with them. 

Good Luck and Kia Kaha mate!

Lawyerish
1.7K
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4.8K
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about 13 years

All the best and always a nasty place to be.

All the above advice is good advice.

Especially the one who recommends a lawyer who actually specialises in this stuff. Many lawyers solely dabble in this (amongst many other things they pretend to be experts on ) and you want someone who does it day by day, not someone who is learning on the job and charging by the hour as they do

Above all keep a smile on your face at work and try your best to enjoy the good parts. That will demonstrate to the bosses that you are not scared of them and are in control of yourself and the process. On occasions you can allow that smile to be a smirk ?

When it comes to the crunch many employers are bullies but like any bully if you stand up for yourself (and it sounds like you are), they are cowards and will go out of their way to make sure it doesn't turn into a cluster fudge for them. Especially the folk who are attracted to HR. I am tempted to say more about those who are attracted but that would result in a ban

Those who keep calm with their integrity and follow the process correctly usually end up in a much better place then their employer, both financially and with respect from others

Those who lose it or don't follow the process, don't 

Make sure however you don't have any meetings without your own legal help

Starting XI
6.7K
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4.5K
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over 9 years

Great advice thanks guys.  

I need to stress, I'm not after money out of this, of course I will look at a settlement if it comes to it, but as someone who has been dragged through the mud on this I will not let me name by tarnished by this, to me that's first and foremost - I've been there roughly 10 years (+/- a couple) with no prior record, well certainly nothing like this anyway. I'm also fully aware that any settlement will pale in comparison to sanctions imposed by Police, Worksafe, Courts etc if the process has not been followed (and I'm in contact with several of these parties) so I'm not and have never really been bothered too much by monetary gain, and of course I would be highly suspicious of hush money payments - yes it is that serious!

Anyway, as an update, early this morning I received an updated letter in my cubby-hole, and well let's just say substantial backtracking has occurred - Four incidents alleged against me have mysteriously been dropped, no where to be seen, and I have been notified of One offence which comparatively minor/moderate in terms of seriousness, especially so when compared to what was initially alleged. 

To say I was absolutely incredulous was an understatement, this soon turned to blinding anger at the runaround I've been given, the sleep I've lost and the anger I've held over this, the inner turmoil I've been fighting since the beginning of the year, I was immediately on the phone to my lawyer who couldn't believe it! They smell a rat and suspect they've got something to hide relating to my workplace injury. I say this, as documents I've repeatedly asked for have been declined and it's basically become a great big game of pass the buck which is infuriating in itself. 

Anyway that's where things stand currently, am going to be putting some more pressure on over the coming days and weeks to gain access to information that I am entitled to - Again can't be overly specific case wise, you never know who's watching! 

Who knows, maybe in time I'll do a tell all on this one day (maybe redacted slightly...) It'd be a farken interesting read that's for sure. I wouldn't wish this agony on many people, but there is a special place in hell for the pricks that are running the rake over me for this!

Marquee
2.7K
·
7.2K
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almost 17 years

Keep us updated please!
Also you might want to access EAP services if your employer has this in place. It's free and confidential ans a great tool when work is getting you down. I've used them in the past and they've been really useful.

Marquee
2.1K
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8.2K
·
about 17 years

YoungHeart wrote:

Great advice thanks guys.  

I need to stress, I'm not after money out of this, of course I will look at a settlement if it comes to it, but as someone who has been dragged through the mud on this I will not let me name by tarnished by this, to me that's first and foremost - I've been there roughly 10 years (+/- a couple) with no prior record, well certainly nothing like this anyway. I'm also fully aware that any settlement will pale in comparison to sanctions imposed by Police, Worksafe, Courts etc if the process has not been followed (and I'm in contact with several of these parties) so I'm not and have never really been bothered too much by monetary gain, and of course I would be highly suspicious of hush money payments - yes it is that serious!

Anyway, as an update, early this morning I received an updated letter in my cubby-hole, and well let's just say substantial backtracking has occurred - Four incidents alleged against me have mysteriously been dropped, no where to be seen, and I have been notified of One offence which comparatively minor/moderate in terms of seriousness, especially so when compared to what was initially alleged. 

To say I was absolutely incredulous was an understatement, this soon turned to blinding anger at the runaround I've been given, the sleep I've lost and the anger I've held over this, the inner turmoil I've been fighting since the beginning of the year, I was immediately on the phone to my lawyer who couldn't believe it! They smell a rat and suspect they've got something to hide relating to my workplace injury. I say this, as documents I've repeatedly asked for have been declined and it's basically become a great big game of pass the buck which is infuriating in itself. 

Anyway that's where things stand currently, am going to be putting some more pressure on over the coming days and weeks to gain access to information that I am entitled to - Again can't be overly specific case wise, you never know who's watching! 

Who knows, maybe in time I'll do a tell all on this one day (maybe redacted slightly...) It'd be a farken interesting read that's for sure. I wouldn't wish this agony on many people, but there is a special place in hell for the pricks that are running the rake over me for this!

Ok you should now be asking for them to pay your legal costs which have had to be incurred because of their process

Life and death
2.4K
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5.5K
·
almost 17 years

I would recommend talking to and engaging Paul McBride of McBride Davenport in Wellington. He has represented me recently and is exceptional. I know you have a lawyer but just from my reading, you are doing a lot of the running around yourself and I don’t get the feeling your representative is fully engaged. Honestly, give Paul a call, you won’t be disappointed. 

LG
Legend
5.5K
·
23K
·
over 16 years

NP is he an specialist employment lawyer? (Asking for a friend)

Life and death
2.4K
·
5.5K
·
almost 17 years

Lonegunmen wrote:

NP is he an specialist employment lawyer? (Asking for a friend)

LP, yes he is, well respected also
Starting XI
6.7K
·
4.5K
·
over 9 years

Sorry it's been a long week or so dealing with this shark. So I haven't been on here much. It's been a lot of back and forth too, which pissed me off as just as it looked like it was coming to an end something would come up. 

Basically after all that though I got nothing... Didn't realise until the meeting was presented how full of holes the allegations were. A lot of the processes too that were years out of date or not in place at all. If they presented against me a roll of swiss cheese they probably would have had a stronger case, it was actually borderline laughable. My lawyer and my support people (who I'd arranged to bring along) ran rings around them. I don't want to sound arrogant but there were 4 of us in my corner and 4 on their's and they were arguing and stopping the meeting to discuss issues (obviously so we couldn't hear) and generally just backflipped on a lot of these accusations - which to be fair were all shark all along. 

Fun times but there's still a few things I need to sort out externally so when that happens that will be good. Not holding out hope it qill come around very quickly though.

LG
Legend
5.5K
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23K
·
over 16 years

I hope they are paying for your lawyer.

Starting XI
6.7K
·
4.5K
·
over 9 years

Forgot I posted this in here, but just scrolling through so thought I'd update. 

I received an apology which was surprisingly a lot better for my state of mind at the time than any monetary value they could've thrown my way.

Got a slap on the wrist over the minor incident. 

I made several people in HR and other 'management teams' cry with the absolute barrage I gave them all - professionally of course. Basically just told them they were all incompetent clowns who'd be hard pressed to find a job down the circus, also told several of them they were part of the reason and the culture of why so many NZer's seriously hurt themselves, or are indeed killed in the workplace - that went down like a cup of cold sick...

One of the HR manager's has since resigned and another has gone missing - suspected the same way.

The H&S management team that was in place at the time has subsequently been 'centralised to Auckland or Wellington' so they all lost their jobs.

Worksafe was never notified - and then when I raised the issue with them directly, I was told that they can't investigate every incident (something along those lines anyway, might look up the email I got from him...) to which my reply was 'How can you investigate something you were never aware of in the first place?' as I called him a useless cod and hung up. So a big shout out to Worksafe NZ - Absolute F U C K E N disgrace.

I still work for the employer, and although as much as I hate to say it, I've just become a clock puncher - I do my job with no additional effort, no overtime, no taking on additional tasks, and stepping down from roles I had previously to just be a 'worker' (I used to be motivated prior to the incident - Promotions, additional workplace training, specialised training and courses, taking on different roles etc etc). Initially it bored the shark out of me, but now I just enjoy having conversations and a laugh with workmates while on the job and not bothering with all the carry on and the bullshark from management. I've been asked to come back on board for a couple of these roles but have turned them down citing a lack of confidence in superiors and a culture of bully like behaviour - again this didn't go down well, but F U C K them, I'm in a much happier space with what I'm doing now. Good luck to them if they want to get at me for 'retribution'' as well, I don't miss too much, and they'll be bound to cop it again.

Off for some extended travel towards the end of the year to find myself and explore a bit more of this world, so I will be a very happy man when I hand that notice in at work, right before the hectic holiday season.

Phew.

Chant Savant
2.5K
·
12K
·
almost 17 years

YoungHeart wrote:

Forgot I posted this in here, but just scrolling through so thought I'd update. 

I received an apology which was surprisingly a lot better for my state of mind at the time than any monetary value they could've thrown my way.

Got a slap on the wrist over the minor incident. 

I made several people in HR and other 'management teams' cry with the absolute barrage I gave them all - professionally of course. Basically just told them they were all incompetent clowns who'd be hard pressed to find a job down the circus, also told several of them they were part of the reason and the culture of why so many NZer's seriously hurt themselves, or are indeed killed in the workplace - that went down like a cup of cold sick...

One of the HR manager's has since resigned and another has gone missing - suspected the same way.

The H&S management team that was in place at the time has subsequently been 'centralised to Auckland or Wellington' so they all lost their jobs.

Worksafe was never notified - and then when I raised the issue with them directly, I was told that they can't investigate every incident (something along those lines anyway, might look up the email I got from him...) to which my reply was 'How can you investigate something you were never aware of in the first place?' as I called him a useless cod and hung up. So a big shout out to Worksafe NZ - Absolute F U C K E N disgrace.

I still work for the employer, and although as much as I hate to say it, I've just become a clock puncher - I do my job with no additional effort, no overtime, no taking on additional tasks, and stepping down from roles I had previously to just be a 'worker' (I used to be motivated prior to the incident - Promotions, additional workplace training, specialised training and courses, taking on different roles etc etc). Initially it bored the shark out of me, but now I just enjoy having conversations and a laugh with workmates while on the job and not bothering with all the carry on and the bullshark from management. I've been asked to come back on board for a couple of these roles but have turned them down citing a lack of confidence in superiors and a culture of bully like behaviour - again this didn't go down well, but F U C K them, I'm in a much happier space with what I'm doing now. Good luck to them if they want to get at me for 'retribution'' as well, I don't miss too much, and they'll be bound to cop it again.

Off for some extended travel towards the end of the year to find myself and explore a bit more of this world, so I will be a very happy man when I hand that notice in at work, right before the hectic holiday season.

Phew.

Love this! Fecking awesome YoungHeart. Life too short to put up with other peoples bullsharke. 

Starting XI
6.7K
·
4.5K
·
over 9 years
Man, these were the days. Actually quite a good laugh for me now that I look back on it. It's certainly a story that comes up whenever I'm with the family or the old mates I worked with when I was there.

Anyway, thought I'd give a the company I worked for was Tegel in New Plymouth/Bell Block. I left not long after this whole incident and haven't looked back. Now I work for an employer who actually gives a fudge, pays more, offers more in terms of benefits and work flexibility and is just generally a brilliant place to work.

Also I now avoid Tegel or anything to do with them like the plague. 

So there you go for anyone who wanted to know who I was dealing with!



Starting XI
480
·
4.1K
·
about 14 years
Tegal actually screwed my dad over years ago, like 20 if not more years ago, so maybe it a pattern
Starting XI
6.7K
·
4.5K
·
over 9 years
detoxin
Tegal actually screwed my dad over years ago, like 20 if not more years ago, so maybe it a pattern

I'd say so. Something about leopards and not changing their spots comes to mind. I hope your dad dealt to the bastards!
Trialist
8
·
42
·
about 3 years
Which chicken do you eat now?
Starting XI
6.7K
·
4.5K
·
over 9 years
Trier
Which chicken do you eat now?
Inghams, and to a lesser extent, Brinks.


Tegal
·
Head Sleuth
3K
·
19K
·
almost 17 years
LG
Legend
5.5K
·
23K
·
over 16 years
A Legal Tegal or a Tegal Legal?
Starting XI
6.7K
·
4.5K
·
over 9 years
Tegal
Sorry

I had been expectedly waiting for this.

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