The shame of FIFA - Don't be silent

Smoodiver
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Edited by Smoodiver May 19, 2015 10:39
Jeff Vader
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Tegal wrote:

Jeff Vader wrote:

Bullion wrote:

Jeff Vader wrote:

I find similarities in blaming Holden for a person that drives like a maniac...

I agree with Hepatitis

Would you buy a holden where, due to ongoing negligence, staff have died to produce that holden?

you've actually mistaken me with someone that gives a shark.

Which begs the question, why enter the thread which is clearly about protesting FIFA, if you don't give a shark?

Cause I read all threads that have a new post in it and post as frequently and as varied as you. It's also cause I am an old cod. Happy?

Grumpy old bastard alert

Jeff Vader
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Ryan54 wrote:

Jeff Vader wrote:

Bullion wrote:

Jeff Vader wrote:

I find similarities in blaming Holden for a person that drives like a maniac...

I agree with Hepatitis

Would you buy a holden where, due to ongoing negligence, staff have died to produce that holden?

you've actually mistaken me with someone that gives a shark.

Where does it stop? Should I boycott Indonesia for the death sentence or Australia for sending their guys to die? Should I care about Russian gay rights or focus on the gay rights here in NZ.

Every country has their own laws. There are people that do not like the burka etc but 'oh I'm not racist' however. I don't see people telling Australians to fudge off out of our country cause they treat Aboriginis worse than dirt. That's a lot closer to our backyard. Why is there not a t shirt protest saying "stop being racist fudges Aussie"

I focus on what happens in the country I live in. If I have an issue with how things are done in other countries i.e. I should protest Indonesia for those poor mistreated drug smugglers,  I simply don't go there, live there or smuggle drugs there.

In fact, fudge it - my protest will be to stop playing football full stop. That's the best protest I can give FIFA. I won't watch, listen, read, participate in football. That'll fudge em.....

If you really believe that this will make FIFA go 'holy shark, those 13 people are protesting so we should stop' then go ahead. Otherwise, you're no worse than John Minto and his cronies. I prefer to make a difference at home before looking overseas. How about this rampant child poverty in NZ that Labour bang on about? No, let's give a shark about some other country 1st.

Un-fudgeing-believable.

We shouldn't tell Australians to fudge off because of how they treat Aborigines. Regardless if we like their domestic policies you can't blame one person for the policies of a nation. It would be wrong to assume that any average Australian had one opinion on Australians. If we presumed that then we would be stereotyping them as a people. When we protest we shouldn't protest against people but we should protest against ideas. 

Like it or not, the Qatar decision does affect us. There are probably many people on this forum who would love to attend the 2022 World Cup should New Zealand qualify. Being against those other countries is clearly not the same as Qatar because in Qatar the problems directly relate to football. In Russia it is a more tenuous step to link problems in Russia to the World Cup itself. To be against a Russian World Cup you could argue that the World Cup is going to help keep Putin in power. 

If you don't care about the issue or don't believe it is worth fighting for than fair enough. I just think this is quite clearly a difference between Qatar and the other ills in the world. I don't think those who are trying to make a positive change should be criticised. I have already committed myself to not watching the 2022 World Cup regardless of results. You might call that 'no worse (better?) than John Minto' but I'm someone without any wealth or influence. What else am I meant to do? I know I don't matter and I know me not watching will leave a tiny blip but something has to be better than nothing. 

As for you saying 'If you really believe that this will make FIFA', no one thinks that. It also seems we are in a weird position in this country at the moment where we can't discuss anything or our government can't do anything unless it is to do with child poverty.

some things that have some holes that I can see.

1: We can't blame 1 Aussie for a policy of a nation but we can blame Sepp for EVERYTHING at FIFA? You do realise that he does not see half this stuff right? The level of detail, no CEO would see. Do we go nato at Chris Quinn when Spark has an outage? Is no one protesting Qatar for allowing this to happen when they were here last week? How about AFC for allowing it to happen? How about the Phoenix and Domey cause the Phoenix play in an AFC member competition? Do you see how dumb this is?

2: You say that we can't link the problem in Russia to a WC but can in Qatar. Do you believe all slavery in Qatar does not happen if there was no WC there or because this is getting column inches cause it's FIFA and a WC. I guarantee you that there is slavery in Qatar irrespective of a WC being there. Why does it becomes FIFAs issue to fix it but in Russia, FIFA can't fix things? There will be many other corporations (and sweat shops were mentioned above) that will profit from slave labour, not just FIFA but for some reason, it's a bigger crime if it happens in a country in which they have been awarded a WC and it's linked to FIFA. 

I respect your right to protest and I admire you for being more principled than me but know that's it's fundamentally useless. What irritates me is that people want to protest shark that's happening overseas but won't do the same for stuff happening in THIS country.

I fundamentally see this as another reason for people to jump blindly on the FIFA is corrupt bandwagon but then when questioned about other relevant issues, they are not the same because with this one, it's FIFA.

Grumpy old bastard alert

sthn.jeff
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Conditions of Entry. Clause 12

12. It is prohibited to take into the stadium where

any Event match is being played any object

capable of constituting a weapon or any

ostensibly visible promotional, commercial,

political or religious item of whatever nature

including but not limited to, banners, signs,

symbols and leaflets. 



As I said earlier, any protest inside the stadium will very quickly shut down.

Edited by sthn.jeff May 15, 2015 11:40
Napier Phoenix
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While I am not a great advocate of this kind of protest, I will say that the main 3 posting here do seemed very committed and honest in their condemnation of what is perhaps happening in Qatar. I would never condemn their right to protest in a non threatening manner. Good luck boys.

Oska
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Jeff Vader wrote:

Ryan54 wrote:

Jeff Vader wrote:

Bullion wrote:

Jeff Vader wrote:

I find similarities in blaming Holden for a person that drives like a maniac...

I agree with Hepatitis

Would you buy a holden where, due to ongoing negligence, staff have died to produce that holden?

you've actually mistaken me with someone that gives a shark.

Where does it stop? Should I boycott Indonesia for the death sentence or Australia for sending their guys to die? Should I care about Russian gay rights or focus on the gay rights here in NZ.

Every country has their own laws. There are people that do not like the burka etc but 'oh I'm not racist' however. I don't see people telling Australians to fudge off out of our country cause they treat Aboriginis worse than dirt. That's a lot closer to our backyard. Why is there not a t shirt protest saying "stop being racist fudges Aussie"

I focus on what happens in the country I live in. If I have an issue with how things are done in other countries i.e. I should protest Indonesia for those poor mistreated drug smugglers,  I simply don't go there, live there or smuggle drugs there.

In fact, fudge it - my protest will be to stop playing football full stop. That's the best protest I can give FIFA. I won't watch, listen, read, participate in football. That'll fudge em.....

If you really believe that this will make FIFA go 'holy shark, those 13 people are protesting so we should stop' then go ahead. Otherwise, you're no worse than John Minto and his cronies. I prefer to make a difference at home before looking overseas. How about this rampant child poverty in NZ that Labour bang on about? No, let's give a shark about some other country 1st.

Un-fudgeing-believable.

We shouldn't tell Australians to fudge off because of how they treat Aborigines. Regardless if we like their domestic policies you can't blame one person for the policies of a nation. It would be wrong to assume that any average Australian had one opinion on Australians. If we presumed that then we would be stereotyping them as a people. When we protest we shouldn't protest against people but we should protest against ideas. 

Like it or not, the Qatar decision does affect us. There are probably many people on this forum who would love to attend the 2022 World Cup should New Zealand qualify. Being against those other countries is clearly not the same as Qatar because in Qatar the problems directly relate to football. In Russia it is a more tenuous step to link problems in Russia to the World Cup itself. To be against a Russian World Cup you could argue that the World Cup is going to help keep Putin in power. 

If you don't care about the issue or don't believe it is worth fighting for than fair enough. I just think this is quite clearly a difference between Qatar and the other ills in the world. I don't think those who are trying to make a positive change should be criticised. I have already committed myself to not watching the 2022 World Cup regardless of results. You might call that 'no worse (better?) than John Minto' but I'm someone without any wealth or influence. What else am I meant to do? I know I don't matter and I know me not watching will leave a tiny blip but something has to be better than nothing. 

As for you saying 'If you really believe that this will make FIFA', no one thinks that. It also seems we are in a weird position in this country at the moment where we can't discuss anything or our government can't do anything unless it is to do with child poverty.

some things that have some holes that I can see.

1: We can't blame 1 Aussie for a policy of a nation but we can blame Sepp for EVERYTHING at FIFA? You do realise that he does not see half this stuff right? The level of detail, no CEO would see. Do we go nato at Chris Quinn when Spark has an outage? Is no one protesting Qatar for allowing this to happen when they were here last week? How about AFC for allowing it to happen? How about the Phoenix and Domey cause the Phoenix play in an AFC member competition? Do you see how dumb this is?

2: You say that we can't link the problem in Russia to a WC but can in Qatar. Do you believe all slavery in Qatar does not happen if there was no WC there or because this is getting column inches cause it's FIFA and a WC. I guarantee you that there is slavery in Qatar irrespective of a WC being there. Why does it becomes FIFAs issue to fix it but in Russia, FIFA can't fix things? There will be many other corporations (and sweat shops were mentioned above) that will profit from slave labour, not just FIFA but for some reason, it's a bigger crime if it happens in a country in which they have been awarded a WC and it's linked to FIFA. 

I respect your right to protest and I admire you for being more principled than me but know that's it's fundamentally useless. What irritates me is that people want to protest shark that's happening overseas but won't do the same for stuff happening in THIS country.

I fundamentally see this as another reason for people to jump blindly on the FIFA is corrupt bandwagon but then when questioned about other relevant issues, they are not the same because with this one, it's FIFA.

1. The interviews above describe FIFA as "rotten to the core". Most would agree with this. Sepp is the figurehead and targeted like John Key is for the results of National Party policy, but don't think the protests are aimed solely at Sepp. There are endless possibilities for direct action, as you have alluded to, this tournament probably provides the best of these and hence is the focus.

2. He said the links to the World Cup in Russia are more tenuous, and that is absolutely true. Slave labour is directly being used to build stadiums. FIFA's influence is such that it could make a difference if it chose to, and so the aim is to add to the pressure on FIFA to do so. I don't think it is wrong to single FIFA out from the range of corporations which abuse people. In this case the abuses are obvious and clearly benefit FIFA, and FIFA is (in theory) a body that administers football on behalf of us as supporters, so we should not step down from holding them to account.

As to your final couple of points, I do protest things happening in this country and am trying to make a difference. As you clearly understand you can't take on everything, instead of doing nothing I find the best way is to take on the issues which resonate most with you, as someone with soft spots for (among other things) football and the Nepalese people, this is an issue I am keen to get involved in. 

Finally, the "FIFA is corrupt  bandwagon" is an excellent one for people to get on. It makes sense for it to appeal to football fans over other social issues and I reckon that if this is an issue that utilises people's love for the game to do some good than that's fantastic. 

You know we belong together...

Ryan54
First Team Squad
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For post default

Jeff Vader wrote:

Ryan54 wrote:

Jeff Vader wrote:

Bullion wrote:

Jeff Vader wrote:

I find similarities in blaming Holden for a person that drives like a maniac...

I agree with Hepatitis

Would you buy a holden where, due to ongoing negligence, staff have died to produce that holden?

you've actually mistaken me with someone that gives a shark.

Where does it stop? Should I boycott Indonesia for the death sentence or Australia for sending their guys to die? Should I care about Russian gay rights or focus on the gay rights here in NZ.

Every country has their own laws. There are people that do not like the burka etc but 'oh I'm not racist' however. I don't see people telling Australians to fudge off out of our country cause they treat Aboriginis worse than dirt. That's a lot closer to our backyard. Why is there not a t shirt protest saying "stop being racist fudges Aussie"

I focus on what happens in the country I live in. If I have an issue with how things are done in other countries i.e. I should protest Indonesia for those poor mistreated drug smugglers,  I simply don't go there, live there or smuggle drugs there.

In fact, fudge it - my protest will be to stop playing football full stop. That's the best protest I can give FIFA. I won't watch, listen, read, participate in football. That'll fudge em.....

If you really believe that this will make FIFA go 'holy shark, those 13 people are protesting so we should stop' then go ahead. Otherwise, you're no worse than John Minto and his cronies. I prefer to make a difference at home before looking overseas. How about this rampant child poverty in NZ that Labour bang on about? No, let's give a shark about some other country 1st.

Un-fudgeing-believable.

We shouldn't tell Australians to fudge off because of how they treat Aborigines. Regardless if we like their domestic policies you can't blame one person for the policies of a nation. It would be wrong to assume that any average Australian had one opinion on Australians. If we presumed that then we would be stereotyping them as a people. When we protest we shouldn't protest against people but we should protest against ideas. 

Like it or not, the Qatar decision does affect us. There are probably many people on this forum who would love to attend the 2022 World Cup should New Zealand qualify. Being against those other countries is clearly not the same as Qatar because in Qatar the problems directly relate to football. In Russia it is a more tenuous step to link problems in Russia to the World Cup itself. To be against a Russian World Cup you could argue that the World Cup is going to help keep Putin in power. 

If you don't care about the issue or don't believe it is worth fighting for than fair enough. I just think this is quite clearly a difference between Qatar and the other ills in the world. I don't think those who are trying to make a positive change should be criticised. I have already committed myself to not watching the 2022 World Cup regardless of results. You might call that 'no worse (better?) than John Minto' but I'm someone without any wealth or influence. What else am I meant to do? I know I don't matter and I know me not watching will leave a tiny blip but something has to be better than nothing. 

As for you saying 'If you really believe that this will make FIFA', no one thinks that. It also seems we are in a weird position in this country at the moment where we can't discuss anything or our government can't do anything unless it is to do with child poverty.

some things that have some holes that I can see.

1: We can't blame 1 Aussie for a policy of a nation but we can blame Sepp for EVERYTHING at FIFA? You do realise that he does not see half this stuff right? The level of detail, no CEO would see. Do we go nato at Chris Quinn when Spark has an outage? Is no one protesting Qatar for allowing this to happen when they were here last week? How about AFC for allowing it to happen? How about the Phoenix and Domey cause the Phoenix play in an AFC member competition? Do you see how dumb this is?

2: You say that we can't link the problem in Russia to a WC but can in Qatar. Do you believe all slavery in Qatar does not happen if there was no WC there or because this is getting column inches cause it's FIFA and a WC. I guarantee you that there is slavery in Qatar irrespective of a WC being there. Why does it becomes FIFAs issue to fix it but in Russia, FIFA can't fix things? There will be many other corporations (and sweat shops were mentioned above) that will profit from slave labour, not just FIFA but for some reason, it's a bigger crime if it happens in a country in which they have been awarded a WC and it's linked to FIFA. 

I respect your right to protest and I admire you for being more principled than me but know that's it's fundamentally useless. What irritates me is that people want to protest shark that's happening overseas but won't do the same for stuff happening in THIS country.

I fundamentally see this as another reason for people to jump blindly on the FIFA is corrupt bandwagon but then when questioned about other relevant issues, they are not the same because with this one, it's FIFA.

I don't want to protest Sepp Blatter; you should note I did not even mention him in my post. Do you know what the joke of it is? We have an election coming up where the options seem to be Sepp Blatter or else a 48 team World Cup under Luis Figo! Yeah, the World cup needs more Uganda vs Vietnam! I want to protest against FIFA as an organisation and the structures which have led to this travesty occurring.

There would still be slavery in Qatar regardless, that is true. However, all of these stadiums would not need to be built and 4,000 workers would not need to die. It's not FIFA's job to fix anything in Qatar and Russia. They just shouldn't play the World Cup there.

Enzo Giordani
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Well it's all looking a bit moot anyway as I somehow doubt the police officers, SIS agents, CIA operatives, FIFA spies, stadium security, tournament officials, Qatari Secret Police, KGB agents or anyone else of that ilk reading this will be quaking in their boots terribly much in fear of our slick operation!

whatever
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I  suggest that you organise a protest outside the railway station a couple of hours before the first game on 30 May.  TV One & TV Three should be invited to attend (their offices' are in lower Lambton Quay)  so its not far for them to travel.

They are likely to  see it as  a topical news story because they know the protest  will garner support  from "Anti Slave Labour"  sympathisers   and a negative response from the conservative anti protest faction. 

patrick478
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whatever wrote:

I  suggest that you organise a protest outside the railway station a couple of hours before the first game on 30 May.  TV One & TV Three should be invited to attend (their offices' are in lower Lambton Quay)  so its not far for them to travel.

They are likely to  see it as  a topical news story because they know the protest  will garner support  from "Anti Slave Labour"  sympathisers   and a negative response from the conservative anti protest faction. 

The railway station is within the "clean zone" - therefore it's protected by the MEMA. 

Yellow Fever - Misery loves company

patrick478
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Edited by patrick478 May 15, 2015 23:23

Yellow Fever - Misery loves company

Napier Phoenix
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Not opposite the main entrance though

Edited by Napier Phoenix May 16, 2015 05:41
Big Pete 65
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patrick478 wrote:

whatever wrote:

I  suggest that you organise a protest outside the railway station a couple of hours before the first game on 30 May.  TV One & TV Three should be invited to attend (their offices' are in lower Lambton Quay)  so its not far for them to travel.

They are likely to  see it as  a topical news story because they know the protest  will garner support  from "Anti Slave Labour"  sympathisers   and a negative response from the conservative anti protest faction. 

The railway station is within the "clean zone" - therefore it's protected by the MEMA. 

No advertising or promotion not relating to the event is permitted on any public land in the "Clean Zone" during certain hours on match day. Outside of match day from 6 am to midnight the Major Events Management Act 2007 does not apply.

However, all private land and premises are excluded from the Act at all times (except for billboards)  - so the best option would be to find a private property owner sympathetic to the cause, hard though that may be:

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2007/003...

 5)In this section, excluded land or buildings means private land and private buildings, whether or not surrounded by other land that is declared to be part of a clean zone or a clean transport route; but does not include—

  • (a)billboards; or
  • (b)the venue of a major event activity; or
  • (c)land the public ordinarily has access to (for example, a railway station or a venue's car park).

Big Pete 65, Christchurch

Big Pete 65
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Interestingly, the Guardian published a major report this week looking at the state of things in Qatar regarding the treatment of migrant workers a year on from the report commissioned by the Qatari government in response to the Guardian's initial report which blew the lid on the shocking treatment of migrant workers and the daily deaths of especially Nepalese workers.

The Guardian's initial report from September 2013 here:

Revealed: Qatar's World Cup 'Slaves'

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/25/revea...

The Qatar government has made some response to international criticism, showing that protest can have some influence.

But its been halting and seemingly largely hot air and window dressing.

It seems some small progress has been made but nothing quantifiable however if you read the new article:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/14/qatar...

Qatar: How Have Conditions for Migrant Workers Changed in Nine Key Areas?

Thursday 14 May 2015 12.00 BST

Contents: The Nine Key Areas Assessed for Improvements:

(Click on each for the Guardian's report on that topic)

  1. Recruitment
  2. Kafala sponsorship system
  3. Exit permits
  4. Contracts
  5. Wages
  6. Health and safety
  7. Reporting
  8. Accommodation
  9. Inspections

- The report commissioned by the Qatari government in the wake of the international outcry that followed the Guardian’s investigation into the plight of migrant workers in the tiny Gulf state made 62 recommendations grouped into nine key areas. The comprehensive report, produced by the international law firm DLA Piper, was never formally published, but human rights groups say they have been told by the government that it plans to implement the recommendations in full.

“We were told by the government that they are implementing the DLA Piper report but there is no clarity about how, when and who is responsible,” said James Lynch, who was Amnesty’s Middle East researcher when the report was released.

- "Meanwhile, an increase in labour inspectors has led to existing laws prohibiting the confiscation of passports being better enforced. However, critics wants stiffer penalties for those who fail to comply."

Edited by Big Pete 65 May 17, 2015 03:56

Big Pete 65, Christchurch

bwtcf
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Thanks Pete.

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

Phoenix fans. We have to win them over one fan at a time.

Doloras
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Jeff Vader wrote:
I don't see people telling Australians to fudge off out of our country cause they treat Aboriginis worse than dirt.

Not all Aussies are complicit in their government's crap, but clearly you didn't see all those people at the Aussie embassy protesting the Abbott government's attempts to shut down entire Aboriginal villages. But - as you say - we should clean up our own back yard with indigenous people before we go around pointing the finger. (Oh noes, I mentioned Maori people, now HERE comes the screaming and yelling from the anti-PC mob!)

Edited by Doloras May 17, 2015 16:17

Ramming liberal dribble down your throat since 2009
This forum needs less angst and more Kate Bush threads

darkhorse2014
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Link on workers from Nepal in Qatar, who were unable to go back home to bury there loved ones.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/qa...

Doloras
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Jeff Vader wrote:
If you really believe that this will make FIFA go 'holy shark, those 13 people are protesting so we should stop' then go ahead. Otherwise, you're no worse than John Minto and his cronies... I prefer to make a difference at home before looking overseas.



Scuse me, but John Minto is a friend of mine. I don't agree with all his political stances, but he's a genuinely good bloke who, unlike many, puts himself on the line time and time again for something other than feeding his face. Don't just use him as a punchline.

And if you are actually doing something - rather than just talking about it - about child poverty, then I tip my hat to you, sir. What do you do? Donate to foodbanks? Act as an advocate for beneficiaries? Work for Books in Schools?

Ramming liberal dribble down your throat since 2009
This forum needs less angst and more Kate Bush threads

sthn.jeff
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Slavery in Qatar to what a saint John Minto is. Thread drift much?

whatever
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To the conservative Baby Boomers if you mention protesting they are likely to think of Minto. The 81 pro tour faction hated him and the anti tour loved him.

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