Manchester United

20 Legend
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I'm convinced that agent fees are kicked back to the player in some epic tax avoidance scheme. There's no way players would willingly bleed as much money as they do.

I've sort of held the belief that we're going to move away from transfer fees altogether. Players can basically pocket a full "transfer fee" for themselves if they let their contract run down. Wee'll see more of it.

If the rumours regarding Haaland are true I am glad that we have once again held our ground. In the past few years United has bent over for agents too much and we've become a bargaining chip. While it's yet another level of pain to add to our current issues, we need to dig our heals in and make sure we get the right players at reasonable prices. 

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Arsenal the better team, but we've conceded two crap goals. First on the ball deflects through a wall of defenders to sit perfectly for Pepe, and the second De Gea palms into into Lindeloff to sit perfectly for Sokratis...

Martial
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Wow that is as poor a 45 minutes as we've seen this season and that's saying something. Even the Ivorian Freddy Adu is tearing us up. I'd give de Gea a couple of games off. Romero's the best back-up keeper in the world. Give him a couple of games and give de Gea a rest - mentally more than anything else.

If we don't sign at least one central midfielder this window we're an absolute joke. We were already very light there and now Scotty Mc out for 2 months and Pogba has seemingly given up (or out for 3 weeks if you're Ole). 

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Yeah, De Gea is getting picked on reputation now. Romero fully deserves a start.

Better (but still poor) second half. Need creative midfielders to break down teams outside the top 4.

Also on what VAR has and hasn't given this year that was totally a penalty on AWB.

But good win for Arsenal who had a stunning first half.

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Jesse Lingard has signed up with Raiola. And that should be Lingard out the door preferably this month.

I've been a pretty vocal advocate here for being patient with who we bring in, but in midfield we're at the point where we need to make signings for depth if nothing else. Surely there are reasonable players out there who aren't dickheads and can do a job. It would be bonkers to leave January with only a fit Matic, Fred and Mata.

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The worst thing is other Manchester United fans that can sit and watch Bernardo Silva (a player who can not only keep possession and do his defensive requirements, as well as score incredible goals and play fantastic passes) and then compare him to someone like Fred (who on a good day can play passes sideways and not give away the ball) and claim that Fred is having a good game and that Ole is the one out of his depth...

What we are seeing here is a midfield on Lingard, Pereira and Fred getting absolutely dominated by world class players.

There is a manager on earth that could perform with Lingard, Pereira and Fred... and the other options are Matic and Mata.

But sure, let's sack Ole and start the process again. 

valeo
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It's quite insane to me that one of the richest clubs in the world, who has spent a crazy amount over the last few years, is starting a midfield of Lingard, Pereira and Fred v City. Just...why?

I thought Arsenal had it bad in CM, but jesus.

a.haak

valeo
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dbl post

a.haak

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valeo wrote:

It's quite insane to me that one of the richest clubs in the world, who has spent a crazy amount over the last few years, is starting a midfield of Lingard, Pereira and Fred v City. Just...why?

I thought Arsenal had it bad in CM, but jesus.

Even without spending big money surely there's championship midfielders that have about the same skill level as Lingard but at least get stuck in...

Tekkers
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If you were to take the equivalents of Pogba, Maguire and McTominay out of most teams, there would be pretty big issues. Take them out of this United team when the replacements are Fred, Jones and Pereira, there are major issues. Fred has been playing alright but when Pereira (or Matic) is the only partner next to him, its going to be a long day. Jones was the only other fit CB. 3-1 was not too bad. 

I hear people questioning if there is a plan, but while there mightn't be such a clear style of play like Guardiola, Rodgers, Klopp etc seem to have, that has been the case with United's best teams. We bullied and countered Arsenal, we were patient and persistent against teams with low blocks, etc etc. 

The current plan, with Ole, Phelan, Carrick and McKenna, seems to be to get back to something like this. And when most of the style is broken, inconsistent and rotten, you have to really go back to basics. Hence the focus on players with enthusiasm (often younger player), adaptability and the drive that is needed to play for United. 

Tekkers
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valeo wrote:

It's quite insane to me that one of the richest clubs in the world, who has spent a crazy amount over the last few years, is starting a midfield of Lingard, Pereira and Fred v City. Just...why?

I thought Arsenal had it bad in CM, but jesus.

The answer is because the two best ones are injured and after one transfer window with the current manager, none have been bought in. 

I also think if you were to account for the fact that United will always be required to pay more for players as clubs know they have deep pockets (not sure how you'd do this, maybe just total transfers by a market value?) then the spending in the past few years has not been keeping up with other clubs. I understand that market value is also what clubs are prepared to pay for a player but as soon as United is in for the player, the price goes up. 

paulm
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Tekkers wrote:

If you were to take the equivalents of Pogba, Maguire and McTominay out of most teams, there would be pretty big issues.

For me, Pogba and Maguire have both been hit and miss since you signed them.

McTominay has been very good.

But Liverpool have got it way worse with Keita, Fabinho and Matip out.

I think the main issue there right now is simply poor performance in the transfer market. I used to think management was the issue, but  you guys have made some really good points about that (leggy, 20legend, tekkers), that have convinced me the management is not a primary issue.

You either don't get the players you want, or you overpay for them and they don't deliver.

I was discussing with a mate this morning, in the years you've had Mourinho and Solsjkaer, what signings have been successes? The only ones we could point to were Daniel James and Wan-Bissaka, and even then it's early doors, the jury is still way out. To be fair Maguire could potentially fall into the same boat as well.  

Your best performers are either academy products, or signed over 2 years ago - Mctominay, Rashford, Martial, de Gea, Lindelof and the likes. Such bad performance in the transfer market...

Tekkers
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For example, from Transfermarkt:

United:

Maguire for $87m but MV was $50m

AWB for $55m but MV was $35m

Lukaku for $85m but MV was $50m

Lindelof for $35 but MV was $22m

Liverpool:

Alisson for $62.5m but MV was $60m

Keita for $60m but MV was $65m

Fabinho for $45m which is same as MV

Salah for $42m but MV is $35m

Many more examples for other clubs too

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paulm wrote:

Tekkers wrote:

If you were to take the equivalents of Pogba, Maguire and McTominay out of most teams, there would be pretty big issues.

For me, Pogba and Maguire have both been hit and miss since you signed them.

McTominay has been very good.

But Liverpool have got it way worse with Keita, Fabinho and Matip out.

I think the main issue there right now is simply poor performance in the transfer market. I used to think management was the issue, but  you guys have made some really good points about that (leggy, 20legend, tekkers), that have convinced me the management is not a primary issue.

You either don't get the players you want, or you overpay for them and they don't deliver.

I was discussing with a mate this morning, in the years you've had Mourinho and Solsjkaer, what signings have been successes? The only ones we could point to were Daniel James and Wan-Bissaka, and even then it's early doors, the jury is still way out. To be fair Maguire could potentially fall into the same boat as well.  

Your best performers are either academy products, or signed over 2 years ago - Mctominay, Rashford, Martial, de Gea, Lindelof and the likes. Such bad performance in the transfer market...

Both Ole signings.

Maguire has been hit and miss, but then you see Lindeloff next to Jones and it becomes apparent Maguire is covering two positions!

When Ole has the quality of Ndombele, Eriksen, and even Alli in midfield, I'll start to judge him harsher.

paulm
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Tekkers wrote:

For example, from Transfermarkt:

United:

Maguire for $87m but MV was $50m

AWB for $55m but MV was $35m

Lukaku for $85m but MV was $50m

Lindelof for $35 but MV was $22m

Liverpool:

Alisson for $62.5m but MV was $60m

Keita for $60m but MV was $65m

Fabinho for $45m which is same as MV

Salah for $42m but MV is $35m

Many more examples for other clubs too

Market Value when they were signed, or Market Value as of right now? Really important distinction...

paulm
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20 Legend wrote:

When Ole has the quality of Ndombele, Eriksen, and even Alli in midfield, I'll start to judge him harsher.

Dont worry, Mourinho is busy being Mourinho, already threw Ndombele under the bus in a presser, so he'll be rubbish soon enough

Tekkers
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paulm wrote:

Tekkers wrote:

If you were to take the equivalents of Pogba, Maguire and McTominay out of most teams, there would be pretty big issues.

For me, Pogba and Maguire have both been hit and miss since you signed them.

McTominay has been very good.

But Liverpool have got it way worse with Keita, Fabinho and Matip out.

I think the main issue there right now is simply poor performance in the transfer market. I used to think management was the issue, but  you guys have made some really good points about that (leggy, 20legend, tekkers), that have convinced me the management is not a primary issue.

You either don't get the players you want, or you overpay for them and they don't deliver.

I was discussing with a mate this morning, in the years you've had Mourinho and Solsjkaer, what signings have been successes? The only ones we could point to were Daniel James and Wan-Bissaka, and even then it's early doors, the jury is still way out. To be fair Maguire could potentially fall into the same boat as well.  

Your best performers are either academy products, or signed over 2 years ago - Mctominay, Rashford, Martial, de Gea, Lindelof and the likes. Such bad performance in the transfer market...

You would still say that Pogba and Maguire are improvements on the previous players. 

The poor performance in the market is also linked to having so different managers. Players like Depay and Mata suited LVG but didnt work hard enough for Jose. Lukaku and Matic suit Jose, but not so much for Ole. 

The fact that the two (maybe 3) successes in the market have come recently and with Ole, shows there is more promise than people think.

Tekkers
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paulm wrote:

Tekkers wrote:

For example, from Transfermarkt:

United:

Maguire for $87m but MV was $50m

AWB for $55m but MV was $35m

Lukaku for $85m but MV was $50m

Lindelof for $35 but MV was $22m

Liverpool:

Alisson for $62.5m but MV was $60m

Keita for $60m but MV was $65m

Fabinho for $45m which is same as MV

Salah for $42m but MV is $35m

Many more examples for other clubs too

Market Value when they were signed, or Market Value as of right now? Really important distinction...

MV when signed, transfermarkt has the MV on transfer date

paulm
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Wow, that is quite revealing. You guys are actually struggling to get anything done.

When will they try and improve this? Surely the people involved with the transfer side of things need sorting out?

Tekkers
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paulm wrote:

Wow, that is quite revealing. You guys are actually struggling to get anything done.

When will they try and improve this? Surely the people involved with the transfer side of things need sorting out?

Its a combination of the business people involved and agents / other clubs knowing the state of where we are. Unfortunately it will only improve when the on field improves, so until then, it will be 1 or 2 big transfers a season, with a James like transfer to supplement, as opposed to the City like clear outs that they have been able to do. 

For example, Ole has such a good connection with Haaland, good enough to know that he was going to on a Christmas trip instead of a flight to Manchester when those reports came out, but yet the agent asks for a release clause and a sell on % for an 19yo so we decline / don't give in. He moves to Dortmund who already have Sancho, T Hazard, Reus, Gotze and Alcacer in their forwards. Crazy

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