How come you're not a coach, Leggy? Been there, done that.... The country needs you.
I am a coach but probably too old now.
Declan Edge - Let Them Play
I am a coach but probably too old now.
How come you're not a coach, Leggy? Been there, done that.... The country needs you.
I am a coach but probably too old now.
Lou Brocic was old. But good.
How come you're not a coach, Leggy? Been there, done that.... The country needs you.
I am a coach but probably too old now.
Lou Brocic was old. But good.
You are right, he was.
Although with some of the coaching changes that have occured since his arrival , I could argue that he may be setting the structure.Some of these I agree with, others I'm not so clear on.
What I see with the older kids is them being exhorted to make space for themselves and others. With the younger ones there is a real emphasis on individual skill development. Having a larger pool of technically able players , to enhance the chances of a stronger national scene down the track , has to be a good thing. Ole is just one approch to this.
ANd yes , I think , from what I've seen , that Ole or equvialent is ideal for for someone of Declan's passion and knowledge.
I think Declan (head coach) and Nate (overall boss) are a great combo. Shared vision, passion.
I had a great yarn to Declan at U19s. I love his passion, and his approach.
He has rubbed quite a few people up the wrong way in football in this country though. Maybe I'm getting tolerant in my old age, or maybe it'll wear thin over time.
But right now I think he's good value. There are other people who are good value up and down the country. New Zealand Football's great failure is it's inability to sort the good from the bad and unify the good.
I think often in NZ football we dismiss the maverick far too quickly. It seems like many coaches Declan has some strengths and weaknesses, and that his methods may have some limitations. Well so do most coaches instead of dismissing him out of hand because he doesn't follow the NZF pathway (which let's be honest is not exactly world standard) far better to look at what positive aspects his coaching has and try and use those positively.
Based on what I've read on this thread:
great coaching kids to become good footballers. Bad for coaching a men's team to win games.
That about sum him up?
For men to win in a competitive environment you need goalscorers. And regular goalscorers aren't the product of coaching IMO, they've just 'got it'. (Brockie, e.g. and in the past players like Woodin and Keith Nelson & Earle Thomas.) Usually, they've always had it, even as kids. Add one or two genuine goalscorers to eight or nine of Declan's 'team players' and you'd have a winning mens team, I'm sure of it.
Having watched his teams play a lot over the past seasons, I disagree slightly. He doesn't often get into good scoring position, and he also doesn't tend to rate out and out goalscorers - time and time again some talented strikers were left sitting on the bench because Declan wanted some technical guy to run around attempting to play tika-taka.
Also, he hates it when people try to shoot from long distance (or anywhere outside the box for that matter), or when anyone tries to take an actual corner or free-kick. Pass pass pass, he wants people to pass it into the net. There's a reason Declan has never had an out and out striker - because he neither produces them or enjoys them on his teams.
Having watched his teams play a lot over the past seasons, I disagree slightly. He doesn't often get into good scoring position, and he also doesn't tend to rate out and out goalscorers - time and time again some talented strikers were left sitting on the bench because Declan wanted some technical guy to run around attempting to play tika-taka.
Also, he hates it when people try to shoot from long distance (or anywhere outside the box for that matter), or when anyone tries to take an actual corner or free-kick. Pass pass pass, he wants people to pass it into the net. There's a reason Declan has never had an out and out striker - because he neither produces them or enjoys them on his teams.
Fair enough. But you're making him sound even weirder than his old man. Surely he must realise that winning is a good thing even if it means sacrificing principles. If he doesn't, well f***k him, he's away with the fairies.
Actually now N-Bomb says that about the corner, it very much rings true.
he coached the Western Suburbs team at Napier and they were quite good but once we got up in their faces they kept giving us the ball - they played every corner short and most if not all goal kicks were short.
There was one long shot (and it was very close to being a screamer) well it kind of was - Declan screamed - about not doing it again.. we agreed as it was the most dangerous thing they had done in a while.
I think he has some talent but is a absolute madman - which stops him from progressing in my opinion.
I think he has some talent but is a absolute madman - which stops him from progressing in my opinion.
I guess.
In principle possession-based football is fine, but at all costs? Predictably playing one style of football allows teams to set up to counter you. What about the player who has the vision to see and is able to execute an inch perfect 40m diagonal pass? Or the player good enough to create the space and confident enough to score the 30m screamer into the top right? Surely preparing well-rounded footballers is his job now, not mere tiki-taka merchants. Don't we need players with the freedom to express themselves? Chopah's comment above about Declan screaming at a kid who no doubt thought the shot was on concerns me. Sure, creativity can be expressed on the pitch via intricate one-touch 5-10m passing, but football is more than that. Declan's way would mean no Steven Gerard or David Beckham and they are as much a part of the game as Xavi and Iniesta. Imagine a team that played with a tiki-taka based style but had the added + X factor, now that is the beautiful game.
he coached the Western Suburbs team at Napier and they were quite good but once we got up in their faces they kept giving us the ball - they played every corner short and most if not all goal kicks were short.
There was one long shot (and it was very close to being a screamer) well it kind of was - Declan screamed - about not doing it again.. we agreed as it was the most dangerous thing they had done in a while.
I think he has some talent but is a absolute madman - which stops him from progressing in my opinion.
Didn't Lloyd O'Keefe coach that Wests team? When we (Karori) played them pre-tournament (twice) Declan was a spectator once and not even there the second time. And I'm pretty sure I spent 20 minutes talking to Declan on the sideline during a Wests game in Napier, but I could be wrong on that.
Lloyd O'Keefe was the coach, Declan solely went up to Napier as a spectator. Think Chopah may have gotten the two confused.
Very interesting to look at the Nix so far this season compared with last season.
There has absolutely been a significant change in our style.
Last season we averaged 333 passes per game, 248 completed passes per game (74%) and 45% possession per game.
So far this season we have averaged 422 passes per game, 328 completed passes per game (78%) and 50% possession per game.
This season we have already made more than 400 passes in a game 3 times, last season we did this only 4 times all season!
However, we are yet to convert this increased possession into anything meaningful. Last season we averaged 14 goal attempts per game, which is the same as this season so far.
This all seems to align with the conclusions in the Leopold Method piece, it's good that we have more possession but we need to make sure more of it is in the right areas and turns into decent attempts at goal.
I think this season has proved the case that the game is not only about posession - it's about what you do with it......you can win a game with 21% posession, provided you have a great defense and accurate strikers, currently our defence has improved and our posession has increased our goal scoring appears to have dropped.
Mods - the leopold stats discussion should be on the nix thread.
Although with some of the coaching changes that have occured since his arrival , I could argue that he may be setting the structure.Some of these I agree with, others I'm not so clear on.
What I see with the older kids is them being exhorted to make space for themselves and others. With the younger ones there is a real emphasis on individual skill development. Having a larger pool of technically able players , to enhance the chances of a stronger national scene down the track , has to be a good thing. Ole is just one approch to this.
ANd yes , I think , from what I've seen , that Ole or equvialent is ideal for for someone of Declan's passion and knowledge.
I think Declan (head coach) and Nate (overall boss) are a great combo. Shared vision, passion.
I had a great yarn to Declan at U19s. I love his passion, and his approach.
He has rubbed quite a few people up the wrong way in football in this country though. Maybe I'm getting tolerant in my old age, or maybe it'll wear thin over time.
But right now I think he's good value. There are other people who are good value up and down the country. New Zealand Football's great failure is it's inability to sort the good from the bad and unify the good.
I think often in NZ football we dismiss the maverick far too quickly. It seems like many coaches Declan has some strengths and weaknesses, and that his methods may have some limitations. Well so do most coaches instead of dismissing him out of hand because he doesn't follow the NZF pathway (which let's be honest is not exactly world standard) far better to look at what positive aspects his coaching has and try and use those positively.
NZF's pathway is for the 1st time is based on research of best practice of the leading football nations in the world.... fact! Declan no doubt has some good knowledge of a lot of area's of the game and can certainly get youth players to play a certain way fairly well. How-ever, for anyone to say he produces technically skilled players is in most cases wrong, pretty much all of what it takes to learn those skills and techniques is done in the golden years of development which is between 5 and 11 years old, where I don't think he has done too much coaching. What he can do is get players who have that ability to show it off more in a particular way of playing. Unfortunately there is many ways to play this game and not only one way that is correct/effective and I fear that some of what Declan and Ole are doing with this one "attractive" way of playing isn't always setting these players up to best achieve in other environments. I have watched a bit of Declan, Ole and the way they do things out there, some of it is great and a lot could be learnt from other places in some areas, but when coaching youth players it is no secret that we are all trying to produce players who can make the wright decision as many times as possible in a game. So if you are 1v1 in a the right area of the pitch then take some touches, take the player on and see if you can make something happen.... If there is space in behind their defence and a player in a decent position, knock a 30+ yard pass in behind them... You can't just always press the other team because eventually you will come up against someone who can accurately play longer passes and a team with some pace up top, when you press you leave space in behind.... There is no one way!
When you don't give players as many opportunities to make decisions as a young player you are hindering the development of their ability to make decisions. Don't ever do this..... Don't ever do that.... When you get the ball here, you pass....
Every time I have watched Declan coach I have seen and heard these types of things and generally said in a very aggressive way. This is why I can see he is where he is and he will likely never be involved in a international or professional team set up. Definitely wouldn't pay to have my child spoken to the way he does sometimes and would definitely want better youth specific coaching if I was paying what the ole kids do.
Interesting comments Paolo. I haven't seen much of the Declan style but one thing I've always thought makes a good coach is the open-mindedness to be flexible and adaptable. I also agree that there are times when a 30m diagonal ball or a player taking someone on are absolutely the right plays. Kids learn from their mistakes and I hope skilled kids are not having this freedom to express themselves, to create, to try things, coached out of them. A great coach knows when to demand disciplined play and when to encourage freedom. If what you say is accurate (and I have no reason to doubt it) Declan will realise his coaching potential if he can grow to be more open minded about different styles of football. You only have to look at Real Madrid or bayern munichs counter attacking style to realise tiki taka is not the only way. If Ole wants players to succeed in professional club environments they need to produce players who can adapt to different styles and systems of play.
Lloyd O'Keefe was the coach, Declan solely went up to Napier as a spectator. Think Chopah may have gotten the two confused.
really? I could have sworn it was him. Does anyone else know for sure if he wasn't in the technical area for this particular game?
Interesting comments Paolo. I haven't seen much of the Declan style but one thing I've always thought makes a good coach is the open-mindedness to be flexible and adaptable. I also agree that there are times when a 30m diagonal ball or a player taking someone on are absolutely the right plays. Kids learn from their mistakes and I hope skilled kids are not having this freedom to express themselves, to create, to try things, coached out of them. A great coach knows when to demand disciplined play and when to encourage freedom. If what you say is accurate (and I have no reason to doubt it) Declan will realise his coaching potential if he can grow to be more open minded about different styles of football. You only have to look at Real Madrid or bayern munichs counter attacking style to realise tiki taka is not the only way. If Ole wants players to succeed in professional club environments they need to produce players who can adapt to different styles and systems of play.
As I said, I have definitely seen some things that impress me about Ole and even Declan but I have also seen some things that I know are not what is required to aid youth players development for the next level. You are 100% spot on, youth players need an environment where they can feel comfortable to try things, if they can't try them now under pressure in youth games or full trainings then how will they ever develop those parts of their game, we are not trying to produce robots. Unfortunately I have seen a few occasions where players were openly and aggressively crucified after making a bad decision in a friendly game. For me it all seemed to be for the sake of the way/style that the team was playing, which I find so egotistical from the coach (Declan) who was clearly trying to make sure that player never did that action ever again as that did not fit into the way we are trying to play..... We are not going to get our 700 passes that way and under me, that is not good enough....
Inter Milan winning the champions league a few years back, 2010? Showed the world that you can achieve at the highest level by dropping off, letting the other team have the ball, get organised, let them come at you and commit players forward then choose a time to commit to getting the ball back and launching effective and quick counter attacks into the space the opposition had left in behind. They punished the best teams and players in the world time and time again without stringing more than 5 or 6 passes together. Hope none of Declan's players have a dream to play under Mourinho or anyone like him.
It is a very interesting point.
I see a lot of similarity between Paul Marshall and Declan Edge which is a polar opposite to Ricki Herbert. Paul and Declan very much micro manage every minute and every pass of every game. The contrast in Ricki is that he largely stays out of it unless he can see something.
I think with kids, you have to find that balance of micro managing them and letting them make mistakes. I can see that from the sidelines (and I guess a goalkeeper and a CB/.sweeper) you get a better broad view picture of the game than say a midfielder or a striker at the pointy end. so I can see the merit in what Paul and Declan do but only so far. The best way I think is to allow these kids to make mistakes (and if we were in a country with the coverage) then spend the time in the video room going 'here is the option you took. Why did you take that option? Did you consider this option? What can you learn from doing this that you can ensure that next time, you can arrive at a better option'
Personally, I am not a fan of the micro managing coach but I can see the benefits it can provide in certain cases.
I note that Declan's protege Ryan thomas has just signed a 4 year deal with Dutch Eredivise club PEK Zwolle. I think the kid is just turning 19. Wow. Declan's methods justified?
I note that Declan's protege Ryan thomas has just signed a 4 year deal with Dutch Eredivise club PEK Zwolle. I think the kid is just turning 19. Wow. Declan's methods justified?
Epic oversimplification.
I note that Declan's protege Ryan thomas has just signed a 4 year deal with Dutch Eredivise club PEK Zwolle. I think the kid is just turning 19. Wow. Declan's methods justified?
Epic oversimplification.
Apparently he has been the major coaching influence, so just asking the question in a neutral manner, not claiming cause and effect.
I note that Declan's protege Ryan thomas has just signed a 4 year deal with Dutch Eredivise club PEK Zwolle. I think the kid is just turning 19. Wow. Declan's methods justified?
Epic oversimplification.
Apparently he has been the major coaching influence, so just asking the question in a neutral manner, not claiming cause and effect.
Fair enough. Didn't sound that way.
In my opinion, talent is talent. Declan's done a great job, no doubt, but you've got to start with talent. You can't create talent.
When talent meets decent coaching and then gets opportunity. #win.
Outliers - right place, right time, right circumstancs plus prior repetition.
I note that Declan's protege Ryan thomas has just signed a 4 year deal with Dutch Eredivise club PEK Zwolle. I think the kid is just turning 19. Wow. Declan's methods justified?
Epic oversimplification.
Apparently he has been the major coaching influence, so just asking the question in a neutral manner, not claiming cause and effect.
Fair enough. Didn't sound that way.
In my opinion, talent is talent. Declan's done a great job, no doubt, but you've got to start with talent. You can't create talent.
When talent meets decent coaching and then gets opportunity. #win.
Pretty much this. Where Declan has it right is the hours he commits to these kids - he believes in time spent on the training pitch to make his players technically good, and most of them are. The problem for him, as a coach, is when he tries to put all of his players on the field at the same time together, and then it all goes to pieces as nobody can shoot and they all just spend time passing the ball around the backline. He's best served developing the young players and then seeing them move on to a senior side where they can learn the more physical aspects and style of the higher leagues, and fit into a better, more direct system
I note that Declan's protege Ryan thomas has just signed a 4 year deal with Dutch Eredivise club PEK Zwolle. I think the kid is just turning 19. Wow. Declan's methods justified?
Epic oversimplification.
Apparently he has been the major coaching influence, so just asking the question in a neutral manner, not claiming cause and effect.
Fair enough. Didn't sound that way.
In my opinion, talent is talent. Declan's done a great job, no doubt, but you've got to start with talent. You can't create talent.
When talent meets decent coaching and then gets opportunity. #win.
Pretty much this. Where Declan has it right is the hours he commits to these kids - he believes in time spent on the training pitch to make his players technically good, and most of them are. The problem for him, as a coach, is when he tries to put all of his players on the field at the same time together, and then it all goes to pieces as nobody can shoot and they all just spend time passing the ball around the backline. He's best served developing the young players and then seeing them move on to a senior side where they can learn the more physical aspects and style of the higher leagues, and fit into a better, more direct system
Which is pretty much the job he has, so that's awesome.
I note that Declan's protege Ryan thomas has just signed a 4 year deal with Dutch Eredivise club PEK Zwolle. I think the kid is just turning 19. Wow. Declan's methods justified?
Epic oversimplification.
Apparently he has been the major coaching influence, so just asking the question in a neutral manner, not claiming cause and effect.
Fair enough. Didn't sound that way.
In my opinion, talent is talent. Declan's done a great job, no doubt, but you've got to start with talent. You can't create talent.
When talent meets decent coaching and then gets opportunity. #win.
Pretty much this. Where Declan has it right is the hours he commits to these kids - he believes in time spent on the training pitch to make his players technically good, and most of them are. The problem for him, as a coach, is when he tries to put all of his players on the field at the same time together, and then it all goes to pieces as nobody can shoot and they all just spend time passing the ball around the backline. He's best served developing the young players and then seeing them move on to a senior side where they can learn the more physical aspects and style of the higher leagues, and fit into a better, more direct system
Which is pretty much the job he has, so that's awesome.
Technique, skills touches, ball controll are mainly learnt in the golden years of development which is between 5-11Yrs old, Im not entirely sure but I don't think Declan is working with players at that age? So no I wouldn't say that is his job, If he is working with kids in the youth bracket then teaching game understaning, decision making , movement and tactics I would have thought should be the bulk of his job?
Where do you get that info Paolo?
My touch was terrible as a youngster, I never played to any decent level at all, but when I was about 16-17 I started playing a lot of hacky sack, and then when about 18 - 20 I put a bunch of work into my ball skills in the backyard, just for fun with mates, and now have a very good touch with both feet... zero of which was learned in the 5 - 11 age bracket...
11- 14/15 the vital years far as I'm concerned. Under 11 physical attributes are often a game-changer and kids play accordingly. But a tricky 12 yr-old can 'do' a fit but dumb bigger opponent. And 11 - 15 are IMO the "dreaming" years, when if you're any good, in your own head you're the second Messi/Ronaldo/Rojas - whoever - and as by then you're getting an appreciation of the adult world you start realising what you may have to do if you want to get anywhere near them. Enter the inspirational coach.
Like Paulm I was crap until about 12. Then I got suddenly inspired by watching English first Div on TV (Sundays only) and reading anything - everything - about the players of England, Brazil, Scotland, etc. Like Paulm I practised on my own like buggery whenever I wasn't playing with the club up the road, sure one day I'd become an overseas pro. Joke. The coaching I got from my clubs also a joke. But one of my schoolmates, whose Dad was a Pom, and who was admittedly rather better than me, went off for a trial with West Ham soon as he'd failed School Cert, aged 17. W Ham told him he was as good as their kids - their 15 yr old kids. So no luck for him with the pro career. If only he'd gone earlier... Anyway he came back to Wngtn and played out his career in the old National League, with one game for the All Whites.
My career ended soon as I went to Uni and discovered sex, drugs and r & r.
Where do you get that info Paolo?
My touch was terrible as a youngster, I never played to any decent level at all, but when I was about 16-17 I started playing a lot of hacky sack, and then when about 18 - 20 I put a bunch of work into my ball skills in the backyard, just for fun with mates, and now have a very good touch with both feet... zero of which was learned in the 5 - 11 age bracket...
Where do I get that from.... National and International best practice research! Ever been on any junior or youth coaching course? It doesn't mean that you cant continue to improve your Technique,skills etc (which doesn't only include touch) when you are out of those years but it has long been proven that these years are where the most accelerated learning of these skills are done. Hence why most, if not all world leading football development programs will focus their youth programs on decision making, game understanding , tactics etc... and put a huge emphasis of the junior development programs on dribbling, technique, skills etc.. Don't have to believe me but maybe do a little digging around yourself. Have a look at Australia FF website about what they are doing and why (their programs are largely designed on what the Dutch do in their programs) or have a look at many of the leading nations Spain, Germany etc.. I know many people don't care too much for the whole of football plan that we are implementing here in NZ but it is based on research of best practice so I think it is pretty safe to say we finally do know what we should be doing with what ages to produce better players. So it baffles me that a lot of people still don't listen.
There are obviously different levels of learning but I think the younger you teach ball skills/first touch the better. It then becomes natural and automatic.
There are obviously different levels of learning but I think the younger you teach ball skills/first touch the better. It then becomes natural and automatic.
Without wishing to appear sycophantic Leggy, you were one of my 'heroes'. You and Bill de Graaf. Well, East Subs were NZ's top team after all. Then that amazing team of 'immigrants' (note Vader) in Wngtn came right - i.e. got fit - and everything changed. Within a coupla games of thrashing Wharfies 4-1, European-style football hit Welly bigtime. 5,000 at the Basin - no problem. Touch - pass - flick - touch - pass... the old Anglo style was blown out of the water. Our kid's club team even changed strip to match theirs. And we were rewarded by becoming for a brief while their junior team, with 'guest' coaching from our heroes - whenever they were sober enough to do so. Lou Brocic, coaching our junior Welly rep squad, was the icing on the cake. Probably never happen again. Too anarchic/non PC for NZF's 'future plan for NZ soccer'.
There are obviously different levels of learning but I think the younger you teach ball skills/first touch the better. It then becomes natural and automatic.
Without wishing to appear sycophantic Leggy, you were one of my 'heroes'. You and Bill de Graaf. Well, East Subs were NZ's top team after all. Then that amazing team of 'immigrants' (note Vader) in Wngtn came right - i.e. got fit - and everything changed. Within a coupla games of thrashing Wharfies 4-1, European-style football hit Welly bigtime. 5,000 at the Basin - no problem. Touch - pass - flick - touch - pass... the old Anglo style was blown out of the water. Our kid's club team even changed strip to match theirs. And we were rewarded by becoming for a brief while their junior team, with 'guest' coaching from our heroes - whenever they were sober enough to do so. Lou Brocic, coaching our junior Welly rep squad, was the icing on the cake. Probably never happen again. Too anarchic/non PC for NZF's 'future plan for NZ soccer'.
Lou Brocic was a real eye opener to me. All of a sudden you realise than you know very little about football. He was a very hard man to please but I really learnt a lot from him.
Without wishing to appear sycophantic Leggy, you were one of my 'heroes'.
I feel sorry for you.
^ Haha. Kid's gotta start somewhere.
Where do you get that info Paolo?
My touch was terrible as a youngster, I never played to any decent level at all, but when I was about 16-17 I started playing a lot of hacky sack, and then when about 18 - 20 I put a bunch of work into my ball skills in the backyard, just for fun with mates, and now have a very good touch with both feet... zero of which was learned in the 5 - 11 age bracket...
Where do I get that from.... National and International best practice research! Ever been on any junior or youth coaching course? It doesn't mean that you cant continue to improve your Technique,skills etc (which doesn't only include touch) when you are out of those years but it has long been proven that these years are where the most accelerated learning of these skills are done. Hence why most, if not all world leading football development programs will focus their youth programs on decision making, game understanding , tactics etc... and put a huge emphasis of the junior development programs on dribbling, technique, skills etc.. Don't have to believe me but maybe do a little digging around yourself. Have a look at Australia FF website about what they are doing and why (their programs are largely designed on what the Dutch do in their programs) or have a look at many of the leading nations Spain, Germany etc.. I know many people don't care too much for the whole of football plan that we are implementing here in NZ but it is based on research of best practice so I think it is pretty safe to say we finally do know what we should be doing with what ages to produce better players. So it baffles me that a lot of people still don't listen.
Not saying I don't believe you, just pointing out that my own personal experience flies in the face of what you are saying, that's all.
You gave the impression to me that if you don't develop a good touch in the specific age group of 5 - 11, then you'll never have a good touch. Which is wrong. You may not have meant that but that's how I interpreted it.
It makes sense that we have higher capability of learning and improvement in the 5 - 11 bracket than older brackets - we have even higher capability in the bracket 0 - 4, so we should be training them on their ball-skills from birth if that were possible. Kids are working on their touch at the park over the road from my house, and some of them only look 2 - 3. I better go over and tell them they should wait until 5 or else that's a waste of time ;)
What I'm getting at is I think what this really tells us is that the earlier you train kids on their touch the better, and 5 - 11 is really just the earliest that can be trained effectively.
Kids' minds aren't really equipped for learning about good decision-making to be able to train that into them until later on anyway, so what you're saying is completely logical, and I do agree, just think you're defining it into age-groups that are convenient for statistics only, when it's much simpler - the earlier the better.