ISPS Handa Premiership

So your saying 90% of clubs wouldnt want to play at a national level if they had the opportunity? 

I'm not privy to finance and entry fees so wouldnt know that was hefty. 

The current standard of the league isnt great and financially is not viable. Seems like they pushing s up hill trying to keep it going. 

If it went regional would the player payments ballon anymore then they are now?  If clubs are stupid enough to get themselves in that position then they only got themselves to blame. 

It's been relatively stable, but only because the federations have come in and propped it up, and because it's been stripped back and stripped back.

The plan released by NZ Football last November was a hodgepodge that valued keeping as many people as possible happy over true alignment. The idea that one team being promoted and one being relegated (after accounting for all the restrictions on which teams can be relegated) every four years opens the door to aspiring clubs was laughable.

Some of the modern context, off the top of my head

A, the existing national league entities are for the most part a financial mess, most could disappear tomorrow with little to no impact and no-one would miss them; 

B, many of them struggle for support and a true, top-to-bottom club feel. winter clubs are where full-time employees and player/coach/support/volunteer bases are.

C, also, the bulk of player development work is being done by 'winter clubs' already, so they should be embraced and promoted, the pathways should be clear, and not involve jumps every time winter becomes summer and ice versa; 

D, many talented players aren't involved in summer as things stand, often because it's too much football or because it means changing environments; 

E, the quality at the top end of the NRFL Premier Division, and to a lesser extent, at the top end of the Central League matches and sometimes beats the national league;

F, Covid-19 is forcing conversations to be had up and down the country about mergers and the like. work hand in hand with this, get people talking, and an aligned system is there to be had.

Of course, there are plenty of specifics to be ironed out, re cost, format etc. but the basic ingredients are there.

I tend to think the rationale for change now is the same as 1992 - finance ?

As far as player payments go then scarce resource + more purchasers = inflation.

Not sure that any body here is aware of how dire Superclub was . Only interesting parts were the regional clashes between the top sides (North Shore , Waitak and to a lesser degree Waikato up north) and the national rounds when ex National League sides resumed rivalries.Other games were the proverbial two men and a dog.

And then the plate section !!!!

(I was born in 1991) I think a key difference between then and now is that the people (whatever their role) who found Superclub dire had grown up with the original national league and seen it in its good times, so yes, there was a big change and drop off. But are there really big numbers of people who would miss the national league as it stands today if it collapsed back into the regional leagues, with some sort of national component at the end? The winter leagues and winter clubs have tended to attract more passion and interest in recent years (outside of AC-TW and to a lesser extent AC-ES). The Hamilton derby between Wanderers and Melville this Saturday will be a bigger game than any Wanderers national league home game this year.

so effectively the same as now then. Except now its split over winter and summer.

Isn't that really like any league, some games you will calender in as a must watch. A crystal palace vs Southampton type you'll be nah it's ok.

Well in case you missed it, the conversation is about clubs playing in a national league and not a regional entity. I'm sure bums on seats will be some form of measurement of how successful it is, so if your rival club is the only team in the league, do they expect/want other people in the city to now support that team? 

So..........Winter clubs are at a level that they could compete at OFC level and then in the Club World Cup?

Even with the National league players dispersed back into the winter league clubs, surely the level will be diluted?

But your local club will be in the 'league'. They might not qualify for the finals stage (whatever form it takes) but you can either go watch a couple of matches as a neutral at that stage or enjoy a couple of rounds of golf.

One idea I've had is that instead of having the top club or two from down south advance to the finals stage, you could instead have Mainland/Southern United come together for it, if it was decided that would work better in those areas.

I think the teams that qualify would be able to compete at OFC level (100%) and no worse than they currently do at the Club World Cup (whatever form that takes). Plenty of teams out there comparable to the most recent editions of Team Wellington and Auckland City that went. But can't let these fringe worries, that a team or two have to deal with each year, drive broader decision making.

so what does your ideal NL look like AV?

To some degree what Andrew is proposing already exists in "embryonic form" in the revived South Island league. Though I approve in principle, it doesn't see, from the other end of the country, to be the kind of massive success which would justify putting the last 16 years of NZFC in the bin.

edited to add: I'm grateful for Andrew for explaining what he sees about the modern context that would justify scrapping the current NZFC model altogether. He's a full-time sports journo and I'm not so I'm going to have to take a lot of what he says on faith. But I would like comment on whether he's right that the top of the NRFL and Central League is as good as/better as the NZFC at the moment from other people who watch more NRFL/Central League matches than I do.

Having watched a lot of the National league and quite a bit of the Central League, some of the NRFL. I feel the majority of the regional teams would struggle big time against the top National league teams.  

Superclub was a bummer because we didn't have a proper national league to play in

When it started, I'd had one year in central league. Compared to that one year, Superclub crowds were significantly larger. 

It's also fair to say that not all of the talent existed in the national league. I think that this is even more true now. I think the Handy houses our best domestic players, but the layer below that is spread between Handy and regional.

BTW, I'm not pro Superclub v2, but I accept it may be the only option we have. I'd much rather we had a 10-12 team, promotion relegation league starting in February and running in to winter. I'd give all current league members the first right of participation. If they perform shark they can fudge off and be replaced by some rich regional club

I actually didn't mind the last version (pre franchise) of the league - 10 teams played over summer , with the bottom side going into a play of with 3 regional teams (northern league winner , best of central and capital, and best of mainland and southern).

Would have the bottom side relegated automatically as the main change, and the play offs limited to 3 sides.

The situation re Chatham Cup was a bit messy and could only satisfactorily resolved by switching to winter , which then raises the situation re the Phoenix Reserves in the National League. Also the Phoenix Youth in Central League ?

Composition of the league was not too bad although last league had two Dunedin sides in it (Tech and Cavvy) .

A few more issues - what happens if a composite side like Canterbury or Southern for example finishes bottom ?

The old 12 team league with 3 sides automatically relegated wasn't too bad - kept interest going to the end most seasons.

The more i think about it the more i think the status quo is the best of a bad lot

does a NL need a geographical spread of teams?

can only help but feel that the power struggle among Football South/Mainland teams in this scenario would result in either one decent team from each area being in the league (i.e. Chch Utd or Southern) with the rest made up of NRFL and Central teams, or none at all. not enough talent/money being shared around

ideal scenario for me, if we had A-League-like influence and cash, would be a 12 team national league with a second tier comprised of North Island and South Island divisions (like 1999, but a tier down). One North team and one South team go up automatically, replacing the worst team from each island

doesn't the talent all head to the academies in the big smoke these days anyway?

can only hope that changes. APFA bore fruit for a while and a satellite of a big academy down south could help (like WPFA/Onehunga)

for now, sending kids to Ole or the Nix gives more opportunity than keeping them in a subpar developmental environment, and I see no reason why that should stop as long as no quality South Island alternative exists. kids like Feutz (Ashburton) and Ebbinge (Q'town) are proof

Those that can afford it, but not all.

Not just academies. The best 19-23 year old players from Nelson and Marlborough are playing for North Wellington.

I agree re: 'the majority'.

But I think, in a very general sense (I could go into plenty of detail if anyone wants it)... 

* the top few teams in the NRFL (at their strongest, as there tends to be a lot of variation from round 1 to round 22) and 

* the top few in the CL 

could have come into the NL the last four seasons (while it's been a 10-team league) and competed for the top four (if cloning technology existed and they put in a proper effort). We basically saw this in action with Western Suburbs/Eastern Suburbs in 2018-19.

I would say Auckland City and Team Wellington would still have been clear at the top of the pack in all four seasons (joined by Eastern Suburbs in 2018-19).

Remember though, if the NL as it stands/summer football were to disappear tomorrow, the regional leagues (and especially NRFL/CL) would be immediately become stronger as a result, due to shifts in commitment, focus, and availability – they'd look more like they are this winter every winter.

no (but then again, I'm someone who's saying right now we don't need a 'national league' full stop).

I'm going to write this up more properly...

But I'd probably like to build up to something that is 10 or 12 teams, 3 rounds, March-November.

And to start off along the path towards that, I'd go back to 3 (or 4) regional leagues culminating in a national finals series, March-November.

At the heart of many issues the game faces is the lack of alignment and solving that means a single season (and a proper single season, not the November-May/March-September overlapping season outlined by NZF last year). Most football activity is in winter and that's where most of the enthusiasm, interest, and money is so that's the only place to go.

how does player development sit within all of this given central league, in particular, seems to have got younger?

National league provides a different experience but also development none-the-less.

there is also a total focus on ole and phoenix players by pundits and journalists which seems to constantly skew views on capability and contribution of teams. All we ever hear about are the top 4 and players within those ranks.

Expand on that last point more.

perhaps I’m going a bit off topic here. Great teams are not necessarily composed of great individual players. Great individual players can play in not very good teams. There seems to be some kind of assumption that if you play in a top team or attend a top academy you are a player worth talking about. This is constantly reflected in nz football media. I see very little analysis or understanding broadcast on social media/mainstream media about a range of players or teams across the National/regional playing spectrum.

national league and central league, however you configure the competitions, are actually full of extremely capable players who are playing wherever they are playing for a variety of reasons. Would be good to have more focus and understanding around that.

Maybe journalists need to work harder, in more depth, with more interesting vision than just reporting how great the usual teams are each week.

Any idea when we will see a draw for the season? 

I was just reading about wealth in NZ, there is tons of untaxed money around, those people don't know how to spend it:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/31/new-zealands-astounding-wealth-gap-challenges-our-fair-go-identity

can’t see that happening

You just need to look at the hatred that that came from Auckland United (Old Club)  when they got booted from the NYL.  

Its a no from me. 

Word is they're too late for this season anyway and will have to reapply again next year

HA!
Not going to happen

Part of the expansion process a few years ago was that several clubs ended up with provisional NL licenses that meant they would be conisdered to replace any clubs that dropped out and would be first in line for future expansion. When NZF were talking about implementing a pro/rel system I believe one of the stipulations was a club had to have such a license to be considered for promotion. NZF recently reached out to clubs to apply/reapply for these licenses.

was that really any worse than when Western Suburbs threatened to take NZF to court when the franchise league was set up because their bid for the Ole Madrids was rejected?

I thought Auckland United (along with Manawatu United and Heartland Wairarapa) had a reasonable complaint as NZF did really just dump them from the NYL and these teams were providing pathways for areas of NZ where there isn't really any

Ole Madrids was disappointing also,  In my opinion the stuff out of Centre park was worse as it was personal and implied race-related bais.    

The rhetorical move whereby people are accused of racism for complaining about racism is in itself racist.

Disclosure here, I'm friends with Hone Fowler's father, but Manukau United (and Auckland United and Manukau City, its predecessors) are on the receiving end of racist bias from the Auckland football fraternity, and you only need to look into the wretched hive of scum and villainy that is the Northern League Forums to confirm that. A brawl brakes out at a MU game, the MU players are ALWAYS blamed for it, and their (North Shore or central Auckland) opponents are portrayed as innocent victims of "dark thuggery".

what a pile of crap Doloras - you can't use the keyboard warriors on the NL forum as a measure about how the game in Auckland sees those clubs you mentioned.

In my view the Auckland United (the original one) was correctly denied entry as from a governance and organisation point of view they struggled to run a NYL team.  The had nowhere near the level required to step up to NL.

This version of a South Auckland cluster is a much much better version of that and if they can meet the criteria I'm happy for them to take a slot.

But it can't be run as a charity case - if they deserve the spot on merit then give it to them and the reality of that is most of us will never be able to see what criteria they are measured on and succeed or fail on.

I'm a bit confused as to why this is even a thing, when competition formats and structure are a key thing up for review as part of the Diversity and Sustainability Project and the guiding principles in place point to a return to winter-centricism (though NZF has ignored those same principles in the past).