Effecting Change at NZF

djtim3000
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happydays wrote:

The other infuriating thing for me with Morgan is that he has turned into a classic opposition MP. He says a lot of words without saying anything other than "the guys in charge are crap and I can do it better." There is nothing in this latest article that we don't know, ie NZF needs change and is poorly run.


He's clearly saying a lot more than that, did you even read the article? NZF needs change and is poorly run because of the amateur governance structure, too many old boys that have played the sport before at a high level are just presumed to be good at sports management regardless of prior experience or business credentials. Additionally, NZF needs to be far more closely aligned with the Phoenix and any future NZ teams that play in professional leagues. While a lot of this is obvious, you still have people shooting down Gareth because (in their opinion) he knows nothing about football, which is just as ridiculous as assuming that just because someone was a good player of the sport, they are able to administer a national sporting body or become a good coach.
scribbler
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For post yf ice man2

I'd love to be a 'fly on the wall' when Gareth sits down with the new CEO. Gareth may be a bit of a loose cannon sometimes, but he's passionate about what he believes and is always willing to debate his critics. How may football administrators in this country will do that?

ballane
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Can you imagine the stink up and down the country if the Phoenix became closely aligned to NZ football,you can only imagine the shit that would be kicked up.So if the A league did expand with another NZ team im guessing they would also have this close association with NZ football.Yes NZ football needs to do things better,but sadly until the so called right people put their hands up how are they meant to do it.Everyone can relate or recount  to the "scratch my back" stories in football.You wont convince me that having your national association aligned to a proffesional club is a good thing.

Whats also ridiculous is that people also assume that because he has been successful in business this will mean it will also work in football.


GET YOUR SHIRTS OFF FOR THE BOYS

el grapadura
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Gareth wants to turn us into a consistent top 50 team in the world? Didn't know he's become a magician overnight.

Junior82
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For post benny

The thing with Gaz I reckon, is that at the heart of his outbursts, or the aim of them, there is a kernel of truth or an undoubted issue that needs to be addressed.

His MO is to bag all and sundry sometimes with justification, often with some shonky assumptions and hope that a response is elicited from aggrieved/accused parties.

I think this approach only works when you are in a position of power (or wealth).  The rest of us have to adopt more negotiated approaches.  Gaz wouldn't be in the diplomatic corps for example.



"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion. 

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

scribbler
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Agree.  Some on this forum may not like the way he operates, but he gets results.


Edited by scribbler January 26, 2014 14:31
djtim3000
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ballane wrote:

Can you imagine the stink up and down the country if the Phoenix became closely aligned to NZ football,you can only imagine the shit that would be kicked up.So if the A league did expand with another NZ team im guessing they would also have this close association with NZ football.Yes NZ football needs to do things better,but sadly until the so called right people put their hands up how are they meant to do it.Everyone can relate or recount  to the "scratch my back" stories in football.You wont convince me that having your national association aligned to a proffesional club is a good thing.

Whats also ridiculous is that people also assume that because he has been successful in business this will mean it will also work in football.


I'm struggling to understand how aligning the national football association with NZ footballs only professional pathway is a bad thing? Maybe you can enlighten me. Sure there'll be a bit of shit kicked up, but that shit will most likely come from exactly the same people that are causing the current issues.

So what if Gareth knows nothing about football, he certainly seems to know how to stimulate change; you can't have any effect on an imbedded culture by lightly stepping around the sides.

Junior82
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For post benny

But at the same token you don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.


Unless of course you don't like babies.


"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion. 

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

Big Pete 65
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djtim3000 wrote:
ballane wrote:

Can you imagine the stink up and down the country if the Phoenix became closely aligned to NZ football,you can only imagine the shit that would be kicked up.So if the A league did expand with another NZ team im guessing they would also have this close association with NZ football.Yes NZ football needs to do things better,but sadly until the so called right people put their hands up how are they meant to do it.Everyone can relate or recount  to the "scratch my back" stories in football.You wont convince me that having your national association aligned to a proffesional club is a good thing.

Whats also ridiculous is that people also assume that because he has been successful in business this will mean it will also work in football.


I'm struggling to understand how aligning the national football association with NZ footballs only professional pathway is a bad thing? Maybe you can enlighten me. Sure there'll be a bit of shit kicked up, but that shit will most likely come from exactly the same people that are causing the current issues.

So what if Gareth knows nothing about football, he certainly seems to know how to stimulate change; you can't have any effect on an imbedded culture by lightly stepping around the sides.

I guess you could see Gareth as aspiring to be the Frank Lowy of football here - notice I say "aspiring" as there are major differences such as Lowy's long association with football in Australia (Gareth being a late-comer), his prominent position in Australian football since becoming Chairman of the FFA in 2003 and his much greater wealth (fluctuates yearly between being the wealthiest or second wealthiest Australian; Jerusalem Post has him as "one of the 50 wealthiest Jews in the world", thought to be worth about 6.9 billion AU dollars).


Lowy first launched a bid to transform football in Australia decades ago but was rebuffed until being appointed Chair of the FFA in 2003 when his ideas and money were finally accepted as being key.

I get the impression Lowy has a much more acute understanding of football gained over several decades than Gareth does.

Lowy was president and prime financial backer of the old NSL's then most successful club, Sydney City Hakoah 1977-88 (a Jewish community club) - Frank Lowy said at the time and in his biography that he was frustrated because the Australian Soccer Federation and NSL leaders did not share his vision for the game. He had stood for the presidency of the ASF against Sir Arthur George and lost, and he withdrew from both football and the presidency of Hakoah at the end of 1988:

http://www.theroar.com.au/2012/03/05/the-day-that-frank-lowy-took-his-ball-and-went-home/


Other differences: I get the impression Soccer Australia's woes were actually worse than ours - even more incompetent management (once had the phones cut off at head office in the 1990's after failing to pay the bill)

- major problem with ethnic basis of most major clubs leading to non-cooperation in running competitions, fan conflict etc.

- strong state federations hindering the national growth of the sport- sometimes opposed to a national league, self-interested etc.

It took a government inquiry into the shambles of football administration (The Crawford Inquiry 2002) and Prime Minister John Howard's intervention to form a new, more competent national body, the FFA with Frank Lowy as chairman. This reflects the greater public and government concern for football in Australia by 2002 as a matter of national prestige.


A fascinating blog by Soccer Australia's former Marketing Manager Jim Shomos on the shambles that was football in Oz and how Lowy saved it:

http://www.jimshomos.com/?p=151

"I was Marketing Manager at Soccer Australia (now FFA) in 1996/97. I could write a book about the internal cancer but it would be too depressing to write, let alone read. However, we do need to remember where we came from to appreciate and respect how much has been achieved in the last nine years.

One example sums up the incompetence of leadership of the NSL days. One morning at Soccer Australia office we had the phones cut off. A National Sporting body responsible for a high-profile National League and five National teams… couldn't pay its telephone bill… and had the phones cut off. It was a miracle that someone in the media didn't pick up on it. Today it would have been all over Facebook and twitter in minutes. One of the Soccer Australia board members, representing the State Federations, proudly talked about why the NSL had to end and how it was his mission to end it. Yes, this was a board member of Soccer Australia, supposedly representing the Australian grass-roots football community. Three ugly spectator incidents in the 96/97 NSL season were blown up in the media as major riots/acts of violence."


Edited by Big Pete 65 January 26, 2014 16:04

Big Pete 65, Christchurch

happydays
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djtim3000 wrote:
happydays wrote:

The other infuriating thing for me with Morgan is that he has turned into a classic opposition MP. He says a lot of words without saying anything other than "the guys in charge are crap and I can do it better." There is nothing in this latest article that we don't know, ie NZF needs change and is poorly run.


He's clearly saying a lot more than that, did you even read the article? NZF needs change and is poorly run because of the amateur governance structure, too many old boys that have played the sport before at a high level are just presumed to be good at sports management regardless of prior experience or business credentials. Additionally, NZF needs to be far more closely aligned with the Phoenix and any future NZ teams that play in professional leagues. While a lot of this is obvious, you still have people shooting down Gareth because (in their opinion) he knows nothing about football, which is just as ridiculous as assuming that just because someone was a good player of the sport, they are able to administer a national sporting body or become a good coach.

Yes I read the article. There are a lot of words in there but not much substance. I don't have a problem with him offering his opinion, but just because he's Gareth Morgan doesn't mean he can fix it by saying what we have now is broken. We all know massive improvement is needed, and good luck to whoever can get rid of decades of petty politics

FU BLU
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Junior82 wrote:

But at the same token you don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.


Unless of course you don't like babies.



or baths...
jed70
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Here, here.


Artist. Poet. Amateur indoor footballer.

Jeff Vader
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Junior82 wrote:
The thing with Gaz I reckon, is that at the heart of his outbursts, or the aim of them, there is a kernel of truth or an undoubted issue that needs to be addressed.

His MO is to bag all and sundry sometimes with justification, often with some shonky assumptions and hope that a response is elicited from aggrieved/accused parties.

I think this approach only works when you are in a position of power (or wealth).  The rest of us have to adopt more negotiated approaches.  Gaz wouldn't be in the diplomatic corps for example.

I was thinking the exact same thing when reading this. He has gone in with a blunderbuss in attempt to really spotlight it - whether that is for his benefit or the games benefit, who knows with Gareth. He is definitely trying to solicit a response. Whether that is from the current folk or hoping it catches the eye of the new CEO/next chairman... at the very least, when the MSM or anyone else says 'Why aren't you working with the Phoenix/NZF?', Gareth has a public position that he has tried over and over again (whether that is true or not, who knows) so has the high ground in the battle.

I don't doubt his heart is in the right place. I guess like others, maybe it is time he puts up and tries to get on the board if he is as well meaning as he says. Effect change from within scenario.

Edited by Jeff Vader January 26, 2014 20:22

Grumpy old bastard alert

reg22
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i like what he has to say and it showed the advantages of being an 'outsider' ( or recent arrival) with a business clue.  why not think big?  why accept the limitations?  it's exactly the sort of thinking that we need at the top.

james dean
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reg22 wrote:

i like what he has to say and it showed the advantages of being an 'outsider' ( or recent arrival) with a business clue.  why not think big?  why accept the limitations?  it's exactly the sort of thinking that we need at the top.


But is he really coming up with any new or fresh ideas?  Is he really coming up with anything that anyone with half a clue on this forum couldn't think of?

Sure as the owner of the only professional team he might think that the whole organisation should be run along side the Phoenix but in the end he's just another interested party with his own conflicts of interest.  You could just as easily make a valid argument that the Phoenix are a separate enterprise, should be run separately because they have different goals and different desired outcomes. 

Normo's coming home

Smithy
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james dean wrote:
reg22 wrote:

i like what he has to say and it showed the advantages of being an 'outsider' ( or recent arrival) with a business clue.  why not think big?  why accept the limitations?  it's exactly the sort of thinking that we need at the top.


But is he really coming up with any new or fresh ideas?  Is he really coming up with anything that anyone with half a clue on this forum couldn't think of?


Sure as the owner of the only professional team he might think that the whole organisation should be run along side the Phoenix but in the end he's just another interested party with his own conflicts of interest.  You could just as easily make a valid argument that the Phoenix are a separate enterprise, should be run separately because they have different goals and different desired outcomes. 

 

The same could have been said (and was) about Frank Lowy JD. And he transformed the game in Australia when he took it over.

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

james dean
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Smithy wrote:
james dean wrote:
reg22 wrote:

i like what he has to say and it showed the advantages of being an 'outsider' ( or recent arrival) with a business clue.  why not think big?  why accept the limitations?  it's exactly the sort of thinking that we need at the top.


But is he really coming up with any new or fresh ideas?  Is he really coming up with anything that anyone with half a clue on this forum couldn't think of?


Sure as the owner of the only professional team he might think that the whole organisation should be run along side the Phoenix but in the end he's just another interested party with his own conflicts of interest.  You could just as easily make a valid argument that the Phoenix are a separate enterprise, should be run separately because they have different goals and different desired outcomes. 

 


The same could have been said (and was) about Frank Lowy JD. And he transformed the game in Australia when he took it over.



Absolutely, but hard to judge Gareth on his plan to turn things around until he comes up with something a bit more specific than "get rid of this lot, they're useless".  I absolutely agree that there are problems with both the governance model, and some of the strategic decisions that NZF have made and continue to make.  But I'm not exactly keen to hand the keys over to Gareth, which some people seem ready to do, just because he is fairly wealthy when I'm not actually sure what his suggestion for improvement is.  

Normo's coming home

reg22
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james dean wrote:
Smithy wrote:
james dean wrote:
reg22 wrote:

i like what he has to say and it showed the advantages of being an 'outsider' ( or recent arrival) with a business clue.  why not think big?  why accept the limitations?  it's exactly the sort of thinking that we need at the top.


But is he really coming up with any new or fresh ideas?  Is he really coming up with anything that anyone with half a clue on this forum couldn't think of?


Sure as the owner of the only professional team he might think that the whole organisation should be run along side the Phoenix but in the end he's just another interested party with his own conflicts of interest.  You could just as easily make a valid argument that the Phoenix are a separate enterprise, should be run separately because they have different goals and different desired outcomes. 

 


The same could have been said (and was) about Frank Lowy JD. And he transformed the game in Australia when he took it over.



Absolutely, but hard to judge Gareth on his plan to turn things around until he comes up with something a bit more specific than "get rid of this lot, they're useless".  I absolutely agree that there are problems with both the governance model, and some of the strategic decisions that NZF have made and continue to make.  But I'm not exactly keen to hand the keys over to Gareth, which some people seem ready to do, just because he is fairly wealthy when I'm not actually sure what his suggestion for improvement is.  



it was just a one page article,so it's hard to say exactly what his plans are or even if he was serious

at the moment he's our best hope of doing a lowy
james dean
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For post normo
reg22 wrote:
james dean wrote:
Smithy wrote:
james dean wrote:
reg22 wrote:

i like what he has to say and it showed the advantages of being an 'outsider' ( or recent arrival) with a business clue.  why not think big?  why accept the limitations?  it's exactly the sort of thinking that we need at the top.


But is he really coming up with any new or fresh ideas?  Is he really coming up with anything that anyone with half a clue on this forum couldn't think of?


Sure as the owner of the only professional team he might think that the whole organisation should be run along side the Phoenix but in the end he's just another interested party with his own conflicts of interest.  You could just as easily make a valid argument that the Phoenix are a separate enterprise, should be run separately because they have different goals and different desired outcomes. 

 


The same could have been said (and was) about Frank Lowy JD. And he transformed the game in Australia when he took it over.



Absolutely, but hard to judge Gareth on his plan to turn things around until he comes up with something a bit more specific than "get rid of this lot, they're useless".  I absolutely agree that there are problems with both the governance model, and some of the strategic decisions that NZF have made and continue to make.  But I'm not exactly keen to hand the keys over to Gareth, which some people seem ready to do, just because he is fairly wealthy when I'm not actually sure what his suggestion for improvement is.  



it was just a one page article,so it's hard to say exactly what his plans are or even if he was serious

at the moment he's our best hope of doing a lowy

Hmm maybe, does anyone know what he's worth by the way?

Normo's coming home

james dean
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Assuming that Gareth's main beef is the lack of connection between the Phoenix and NZF, it's an interesting question to what extent football in NZ would be better served by closer alignment between the two organisations - I'm genuinely quite torn.


On the one hand, I can see definite merit in a NZF/Phoenix side that played in the A-League youth league with only kiwi players.  Obviously it makes no sense for the Phoenix and NZF to effectively be "competing" for the same players (which is the main problem with the Wanderers concept in my opinion).


On the other hand, the Phoenix have no history or in fact expertise in youth development.  The "finishing school/school of excellence" was flawed from the start.  They've made a lot of noise about this academy, and signed some younger players, but really there hasn't been a lot of progress in developing their own.  We just pick up players developed elsewhere.  So are the Phoenix actually the best place for our young kids?  Maybe NZF are right to want to keep control of players via the Wanderers SC etc.  


Until there is someone employed fulltime at the Phoenix (with proper youth development credentials) to look after young players, and there is an actual pathway for young players through the club to the first team, isn't it a bit early to be asking for involvement in running NZF?  


In the end if we are going to be a top 50 side then we would need to draw the majority of our players from leagues overseas, i.e. not at the Phoenix anyway.


One final point, if Gareth wants to buy his way into NZF administration (which let's be honest is what he's already tried to do with his $5mn offer) I hope the number is sufficiently high!!  

Normo's coming home

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