All Whites v Lithuania | Mon 18th November | 2.55am | SS7

andrewvoerman
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If anyone had any questions or anything they wanted to know about how the team was looking in Dublin/Lithuania (journalists got to see three trainings, as well as the two matches), within reason, I might try to answer them when I wait for my flight to Toronto later this week.

Marto
Starting XI
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Did you see a thing different to what I saw in Dublin and Vilnius at the games? eg management favouring certain players, or different formations/tactics being tried out?

Also is Rory any good as a coach?

Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

coochiee
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What exactly did Rory seem to be doing? What was his involvement at training sessions?

For the moment does the relationship between Hay and Buckingham seem okay? They were rivals for AWs job, but is important going forward for NZ Football that they get on. Hay picking a number of young players, that would have gained more valuable international experience, prior to Olympics would have pleased Buckingham surely.

Did older players like Smith, Reid, Boxall seem to embrace the change to playing less route one football?

Global Game
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Any indication that either Boxall or Tuiloma could be a starting right back option?

Kotahitanga. We are one.

coochiee
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Any rumours about Nando Pijnaker? 

Surely too good for Swedish pub football.

Rusty Dunks
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Uncle N wrote:

new to this forum so a bit surprised at the majority of comments around this game....firstly this was an opportunity to see the squad play.  Not NZs top team and indeed the top team would be a combination of the players from both games.  

To drill into rhe result too much after 1 games, limited prep, new team etc in quite immature and starts a continuous cycle of negativity.  The get where Hay wants to be is going to be a journey....2 yrs perhaps 6 until 26 world cup.  

We should enjoy the journey,  focus on youth development and there is plentyand as we know, 2026 represents an opportunity at the world stage,. - I see this as the perfect time to change our style to match the young talent now available.

I think that waiting for 2026 is crap. We had this with Hudson and his blooding off Moses Dyer, Clayton Lewis, etc.....then we had it with Fritz.....Cacace, Singh, etc.....at some time we have to look at the present, and stop pretending we are building for a future?

el grapadura
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Rusty Dunks wrote:

Uncle N wrote:

new to this forum so a bit surprised at the majority of comments around this game....firstly this was an opportunity to see the squad play.  Not NZs top team and indeed the top team would be a combination of the players from both games.  

To drill into rhe result too much after 1 games, limited prep, new team etc in quite immature and starts a continuous cycle of negativity.  The get where Hay wants to be is going to be a journey....2 yrs perhaps 6 until 26 world cup.  

We should enjoy the journey,  focus on youth development and there is plentyand as we know, 2026 represents an opportunity at the world stage,. - I see this as the perfect time to change our style to match the young talent now available.

Even though you got a few likes, I think that waiting for 2026 is crap. We had this was Hudson and his blooding off Moses Dyer, Clayton Lewis, etc.....then we had it with Fritz.....Cacace, Singh, the Inghams.....at some time we have to look at the present, and stop pretending we are building for a future?

Yes, but that's why we'll be world beaters in 2074. Just a shame that many of us won't be around to see it.

Bullion
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If anyone had any questions or anything they wanted to know about how the team was looking in Dublin/Lithuania (journalists got to see three trainings, as well as the two matches), within reason, I might try to answer them when I wait for my flight to Toronto later this week.

This could be its own thread.

Nz_Dave
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If anyone had any questions or anything they wanted to know about how the team was looking in Dublin/Lithuania (journalists got to see three trainings, as well as the two matches), within reason, I might try to answer them when I wait for my flight to Toronto later this week.

Who is in charge of updating the wikipedia pages these days?

"He's operating a turnstile down the left flank"

Baiter
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coochiee wrote:

Any rumours about Nando Pijnaker? 

Surely too good for Swedish pub football.

I'll give you one. He should have gone through with his Phoenix deal instead of listening to people that don't have his best interests at heart. At the very least he'd be playing Handy Prem and the Phoenix wouldn't have had to import McGing (not slagging McGing but a kiwi could be in that spot).


Global Game
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Baiter wrote:

coochiee wrote:

Any rumours about Nando Pijnaker? 

Surely too good for Swedish pub football.

I'll give you one. He should have gone through with his Phoenix deal instead of listening to people that don't have his best interests at heart. At the very least he'd be playing Handy Prem and the Phoenix wouldn't have had to import McGing (not slagging McGing but a kiwi could be in that spot).

...unless he has a better offer; like a January transfer to middling European league, off the back of his U20 WC performance.

Kotahitanga. We are one.

Saltori
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http://oceaniafootballcenter.home.blog/2019/11/17/...


I feel like this article is right, what do you all think?

Addicted to get up 4am to watch Phoenix.

coochiee
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Saltori wrote:

http://oceaniafootballcenter.home.blog/2019/11/17/...


I feel like this article is right, what do you all think?

Nothing like some shameless self promotion Rafael, but sorry I think this summary courtesy of Niche Cache is a better read.

http://theniche-cache.com/football/2019/11/18/thirty-three-thoughts-from-the-all-whites-games-vs-ireland-amp-lithuania

LSA2SB
Phoenix Academy
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Saltori wrote:

http://oceaniafootballcenter.home.blog/2019/11/17/...


I feel like this article is right, what do you all think?

Unfortunately, I think you need to work on your grammar and tense, it's not an easy read. 

Bullion
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If anyone had any questions or anything they wanted to know about how the team was looking in Dublin/Lithuania (journalists got to see three trainings, as well as the two matches), within reason, I might try to answer them when I wait for my flight to Toronto later this week.

Given the lack of contact time a coach has with players, what are trainings like to get the most of the short time and what is in place to prepare players between windows?

What are the systems in place to evaluate the performance/form of players around the globe (especially considering the level some are playing, 4th and 3rd tier Scandinavian leagues, Baltic leagues etc.) 

Critical_Lemon
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Baiter wrote:

coochiee wrote:

Any rumours about Nando Pijnaker? 

Surely too good for Swedish pub football.

I'll give you one. He should have gone through with his Phoenix deal instead of listening to people that don't have his best interests at heart. At the very least he'd be playing Handy Prem and the Phoenix wouldn't have had to import McGing (not slagging McGing but a kiwi could be in that spot).

This will be a very funny post in a couple of weeks.

COnst
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Rusty Dunks wrote:

Uncle N wrote:

new to this forum so a bit surprised at the majority of comments around this game....firstly this was an opportunity to see the squad play.  Not NZs top team and indeed the top team would be a combination of the players from both games.  

To drill into rhe result too much after 1 games, limited prep, new team etc in quite immature and starts a continuous cycle of negativity.  The get where Hay wants to be is going to be a journey....2 yrs perhaps 6 until 26 world cup.  

We should enjoy the journey,  focus on youth development and there is plentyand as we know, 2026 represents an opportunity at the world stage,. - I see this as the perfect time to change our style to match the young talent now available.

I think that waiting for 2026 is crap. We had this with Hudson and his blooding off Moses Dyer, Clayton Lewis, etc.....then we had it with Fritz.....Cacace, Singh, etc.....at some time we have to look at the present, and stop pretending we are building for a future?

Absolutely it is crap to wait for 2026.  The All whites are out there representing football for NZ.  This rubbish about "seeing positives" and "we will see what happens moving forward" is PR dribble for coaches who can't pick a decent side.  Hay blames his mistakes on testing the players to "see where we sit".  

Do the research and play the players that have form.  The rest can lift their game, get fit, heal their injuries, skill up, whatever... if they want a start.

It sounds like he should be joining Michael Chieka in writing 'The excusers guide - for coaches who are way out of their depth'.

Oww.... that came out meaner than intended :- )

coochiee
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Baiter wrote:

coochiee wrote:

Any rumours about Nando Pijnaker? 

Surely too good for Swedish pub football.

I'll give you one. He should have gone through with his Phoenix deal instead of listening to people that don't have his best interests at heart. At the very least he'd be playing Handy Prem and the Phoenix wouldn't have had to import McGing (not slagging McGing but a kiwi could be in that spot).

This will be a very funny post in a couple of weeks.

Spill the beans!  A hint anyway

Annddr
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Come on...6 years? Do they even think about the whole New Zealand they represented? 🤷

andrewvoerman
Getting paid to be here
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As promised...

Did you see a thing different to what I saw in Dublin and Vilnius at the games? eg management favouring certain players, or different formations/tactics being tried out?

I won’t reply to every single of Marto's takes, but I’d disagree strongly with him about Just, as posted earlier in this thread. Watching the Republic of Ireland game back he was the one player who grew in my estimations from watching live (when I still thought he was bloody good). He’s so comfortable on the ball and was brilliant at finding space and clearly better at those then many more older guys. Not as impactful coming into a more intense match in a deeper role as he did against Lithuania, for sure.

Also thought Rojas against Lithuania looked good – and like someone who’d do well with the full-strength team around him. Collier also showed glimpses in both matches, and would be ahead of de Jong and Mata to return.

When you’re trying to do things with two matches 28 months from now in mind, you have to take some risks in blooding/exposing players and seeing how they fare (though I think some of those you listed won’t be back in March, and those who do come back will be on the fringes as the focus turns to the core group).

Waine’s time will come, and I don’t think he’d earned a nod over Collier, de Jong, Mata based on their respective club efforts in 2019. If he kicks on for the Phoenix this summer, with those three likely not to play a lot between now and March, and none of them really demanding inclusion on this tour, that could be his chance.

I didn’t notice any stretches where it wasn’t 4-3-3, but one thing I expect to see being introduced is a bit more pressing/counter-pressing. There were periods against Lithuania where they did a bit, and the codeword ’shiver,’ which they use to highlight the need to counter-press, was audible, but that side of the game was a casualty of the limited time together.

It’s hard to really say about favouring certain players off two games with two different XIs, but I think the Republic of Ireland XI + Rojas + the centre backs who featured v Lithuania is clearly the start of a core group.

Also is Rory any good as a coach?

Given that his primary involvement was for cultural, off-the-field reasons, that’s hard for me to judge, as 90 per cent of what that entails took place out of sight of prying eyes. But in that regard, the feedback I got from some of the younger guys was that it was good to have him around.

On the field, his heaviest involvement at training was working on finishing with the forwards (and being the 22nd player in Vilnius so they could line up 11v11). Against Lithuania he was the coaching staff’s eyes in the sky, feeding back what he could see from a proper angle as well as what the team's analyst (Joe Moore (not the comedian)) was picking up; he probably did that v the Republic of Ireland as well, I just didn’t eyeball him doing it.

What exactly did Rory seem to be doing? What was his involvement at training sessions?

See above.

More broadly, Hay was very hands on in running the show, with Emblen the other man in the middle when they were doing tactical work.

For the moment does the relationship between Hay and Buckingham seem okay? They were rivals for AWs job, but is important going forward for NZ Football that they get on. Hay picking a number of young players, that would have gained more valuable international experience, prior to Olympics would have pleased Buckingham surely.

As far as I’m aware, they’re fine.

Now that this window is out of the way, the big thing re: the All Whites/OlyWhites relationship will be figuring out how things will work next June and July.

The OFC Nations Cup runs from from June 6 to June 20 in a country TBD, so May 25 to June 20 when you take in the mandatory release window. Don’t expect to see many top-tier European-based players or US-based professionals (who obviously have a clash) there. But if that's the case, there should be plenty of under-23 eligible players involved, yet...

The Olympics run from July 23 to August 8, and there is no mandatory release, whether for under-23s or overage players. I expect there will be a similar on-the-ground buildup as for the U20 WC this year, but nothing explicitly for the OlyWhites before that.

Plenty of negotiating between the two coaches, players, and clubs ahead – I’ve seen plenty of ‘add Reid, Thomas, Wood to the OlyWhites’ chat around here, but that’s very unlikely to happen, IMO. More likely to see de Jong, Payne, Roux.

Did older players like Smith, Reid, Boxall seem to embrace the change to playing less route one football?

Reid and Smith both seemed genuinely excited by it, speaking after the Republic of Ireland match. I’d figure Boxall is too, though he probably looked the least comfortable of the five CBs on the ball (not helped playing as a right-footer on the left).

Any indication that either Boxall or Tuiloma could be a starting right back option?

None. Tuiloma hasn’t played RB in years and is seen as the future senior CB once the Boxall/Reid/Smith trio are done. Boxall, IMO, doesn’t have the touch to play RB in this system. Roux was pretty good, I thought (having watched the Republic of Ireland game twice – live and the night after), except for getting beaten for the third goal. Will take a bit for Fenton, D Ingham or Payne to move ahead of him in Hay’s eyes at this stage.

Any rumours about Nando Pijnaker?

I last saw him at Vilnius airport on Monday morning, where he was about to board the same flight as Max Mata. Make of that what you will.

Who is in charge of updating the Wikipedia pages these days?

Not sure, but Hay’s could use a refresh.

Given the lack of contact time a coach has with players, what are trainings like to get the most of the short time and what is in place to prepare players between windows?

I didn’t see Monday’s, which didn’t feature the five Phoenix players or Storm Roux, but I gather it was very much a light session. Tuesday they focused on their shape and roles/responsibilities for when they had possession; Wednesday on shape and roles/responsibilities for when they didn’t have the ball. Those focuses probably took up 45 minutes to an hour of the 90-minute sessions, sandwiched by warmups/rondos and finishing (Tuesday)/defensive set pieces (Wednesday).

They then trained again on Vilnius on Saturday, which was lighter, given the travel, with a bit of tactical work for the new XI in the middle.

I imagine there’s a lot going on off the pitch in terms of tactical explanations/plans etc, but to my eyes (and it’s not like I’ve seen a heap of training sessions generally) they seemed to pack plenty into the short space of time, though not to the crazy extent I saw on a couple of occasions under Anthony Hudson, where everything seemed to be planned out to the minute.

What are the systems in place to evaluate the performance/form of players around the globe (especially considering the level some are playing, 4th and 3rd tier Scandinavian leagues, Baltic leagues etc.)

I’m not sure if there are ‘systems', per se – it just comes down to watching players and making judgments (like everyone on here does). Seeing how they do in the All Whites environment is the only way to really compare. This forum can get too caught up in judging players on the leagues they play in v judging them on how they play. I think the likes of Bell, Just and Pijnaker are all well aware they need to move up, but that's something which is far easier said than done, and there's a lot to be said for playing regularly v going too big too soon.

To pick up on the 2022 v 2026 chat – here’s an age chart for the Republic of Ireland/Lithuania squad, which I think shows a pretty good balance. Is there really anyone for whom 2022 is the last chance who's not involved?

87: McGlinchey (Turns 35 in 2022, 39 in 2026)

88: Boxall, Reid (34/38)

89:

90: Barbarouses, Smith (32/36)

91: Marinovic, Rojas, Wood (31/35)

92:

93: Fenton, Roux (29/33)

94: Payne, Thomas (28/32)

95: Collier, Tuiloma (27/31)

96: de Jong (26/30)

97:

98: McGarry (24/28)

99: Bell, McCowatt, Pijnaker, Singh, Woud (23/27)

00: Cacace, Just, Mata (22/26)

1987-born Brockie, 1990-born Morgan, and 1992-born Musa (and maybe 1993-born Max Crocombe) are the only four from the first six groups (the 2008 and 2012 Olympic cycles), who I’d say are on the radar otherwise – and I think Musa, the pick of them, is odds-on to come in in March. Even as you go into 1993 and 1994, you only really add 1994-born Cam Howieson to the mix, then we’re talking about guys who will only be turning 31 in 2026.

And finally, looking forward to the first match in March, I’d say there are two big questions re: the starting XI, presuming everyone is fit.

  1. Which two of Barbarouses/McCowatt/Just/Rojas flank Wood? (Today I’d say Just/Rojas but there’s a lot of football between now and then.)
  2. Who partners Reid at the back? (Today I’d say Tuiloma.)

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